Isabella, I understand what you are saying but there is one thing that differs here. You are not a business that makes money, you hire someone to clean your house, you don't have to pay minimum wage. You can set your own amount. I'm sure the wage increase is for businesses.

Piemaker, you are missing the point everyone is trying to make to you. Many businesses cannot afford the increase in minimum wage to over $7 per hour. They will eliminate jobs then the people you are referring to will not have a job. Another point, they will have to increase the price for services/goods. Cost of living will increase. They will not be better off. If an employer is making enough profit they will increase their rate of pay to employees who deserve it. Employers should have the freedom to make this decision themselves, not the federal governmemt. I have tried to explain it as simple as I can for you.

No it is for everyone. My family does have a business. I was trying to get you to see a very simple example. This does not apply just to large businesses.

I agree with Pie. The minimum wage increase will only effect people who are working minimum wage jobs.

Also, we need to be clear about one thing. Productivity has nothing to do with how much a particular field of employment pays. What makes one field of employment pay more than another? Is the productivity? NO! It's the rarity of the skills needed to fill that position. I've worked in McDonald's before, flipping hamburgers, and I will admit that I worked longer and harder hours doing that then the standard 9 to 5 job I work now. Yet, my current job pays more.

Personally, I think if far fewer people flocked to these minimum wage jobs, the demand for these jobs would increase, causing an increase in pay for that field. That's supply and demand for you. Maybe employment just isn't dispersed enough, but what can you do short of supporting communism?

Piemaker, please don't take offense. I don't mean to be picking on you. You are not looking at the whole picture, though. It would be wonderful if everyone could make higher wages.

Supply and demand.

I can agree that if a company can't afford to pay the higher wage, than they will likely increase the cost of their goods. However, if the company pays higher than minimum wage to begin with, they could expect a more generous productivity from their employees, thus higher income for the overall company. When such minimum wage raises like this come along, the company would not be effected in the least.

It's really a competition between worker and boss. Both are trying to make more money from the other. If the boss demonstrates that he is willing to toss a bone once in a while, than the worker will likely work harder. After that, it is up to the boss to decide if the worker's performance meets the reward.

I do understand what you are saying but do you understand that some employers even if they can afford to raise their employees pay won't. They are tight, they do not want to get off of it, they are satified to pay the least amount they can because it leaves more for them. you get talking about cost of living increases but the cost of living has been going up these last few years without a wage increase. Look at the price of gas the last 2 years that is not because of the wage increase.

Don't worry I'm not taking offense and I don't think you are picking on me. But I also think you are not seeing the whole picture. I agree the government should not tell employers what to pay, I also agree it should be up to the employer to run his business. I understand all of that. I understand that business cost could go up but if a employer was already paying above minimum then he should not have to go up on his goods.

You can not blame the wage increase for the cost of living increase. The cost of living increase is because of the government and your big oil companies and companies like sweepco that has no competition for their product. Do you think sweepco would have as many customers for power if there was another company with cheaper rates. That is another case of your supply and demand. They supply power, there is a demand for it but there is no competition so they charge whatever they want to a certain point. It's pay what we charge or we'll cut you off. Great for supply and demand. Another thing that affects the cost of living, people like that CEO of Enron, how many people did he put the shaft too? No the wage increase was not responsible for that.

I will have to weigh in on this one. What it comes down to is we will have to do more with less. In the end the people living on the bottom level of income will find themselves with out a job. The sad part is the people with out money will vote for the people that are doing this to them.

So the answer is to keep the little guy down no matter what.

the answer is government does not have the right to dictate to a business owner how much he or she has to pay some one for services rendered !! This attitude is why we have so many Mexicans coming over the border to do work that Americans are to good to do. There is no excuse for being lazy.

That is true, but what about the companies that move to another country for the cheap labor. Companies that have fired workers to move. I agree the government does not have the right but if you don't want the raise then copanies should lower their prices so people can afford them. I'm talking oil companies , light companies , gas companies and so fourth.

Also do you think our elected people deserve the big bucks they make. A lot of our polticians own business that they make money at but they still draw enormous paychecks from us. And we give them the power to vote theirself a raise when they want.

TRUE!

No I do not give it to them. I NEVER vote for a democRAT :nono: :nono: :nono: that is like a vote for the ACLU and trial lawyers :nono: :nono:

Let me get this straight. If an employee is a successful CEO and makes 6 figures, that is bad because it is too much? And if an employee is at the bottom rung and makes minimum wage, that is bad too because it is too little? So we need the government to mandate that everyone makes more than the old minimum wage but less than 6 figures? To be fair? To be moral?

I grew up during the cold war with the Soviet Union. As a child we had an former Soviet citizen who excaped that country come and speak to our class and explain how in the USSR, garbage men and doctors all made the same salary, and the government told you what your job is going to be. Government intervention such as minimum wage laws bring our country one step closer to that goal of "fairness for all" (socialism).

If you are counting on government laws to provide fairness, and not the natural laws of supply and demand, then you will be disappointed time and time again and will never earn a chance to become truely independent. I think that government is like crack, every addictive. Once you are high on government, it is hard to get off it.

Piemaker, if an employer refuses to give raises then don't work for this company. Truth of the matter there will always be those at the bottom of the totem pole who will never be able to better themselves. Some causes are lack of education, lack of experience, lack of intelligence, and laziness.

Great Point!

:goodpost2: :bravo: :goodpost2: :footballsmiley:

No it affects all consumers. (everyone who buys food, services or goods)


Is flipping hamburgers really a harder job than using your mind sitting still in a chair excercising computer skills?


That is like saying that when fuel prices rise due to short supply, then demand for gas goes up and not down. Clearly demand goes down when supply is short and prices rise. Some people don't want to pay that extra money so they do without. Same goes for any business. Supply and demand are your friends not government. But you do need to understand and believe in free markets as a first step. Or else rely on government to save the day, and get back to me on that and let me know how well it works. LOL

LOL, try supporting capitalism and free enterprise. Then if you go to school and work hard and never give up, you will have an excellent chance at making 6 figures, which I think would be a good thing and not bad, a blessing to be sure.

Great point. Lets raise minimum wage and attract more illegal aliens to break into our country! NOT! Lets face it, a minimum wage underminds having to work as hard. This leaves a void to be filled by those willing to work for less than minimum wage because they are not officially in the system. Raising the minimum wage without enforcing our border laws is plain irresponsible. But that's our government at work...

Nobody keeps the little guy down but the little guy himself. There are so many forms of student grants, scholarships, loans, and government programs for this and that. But nobody is going to put a gun to the little guys head and make him/her take advantage of it. Well not yet anyway. ;)

This is so true !!! The less you have the more the government will GIVE you for not working. You dig the best ditch and you will not be digging them for long because you will be promoted up the ladder.

Oh I don't know how I missed this thread but we've had some teenage drama in the house for a couple of days so I guess that is how. But let me jump in the deep end of the pool here!

I believe I can speak from both ends you keep referring to Pie. I have been the low wage earner and now can speak as the business owner. The minimum wage increase is not going to be all that you think it is. It is going to hurt business owners which will in fact trickle down and hurt the worker. Business owners can not continue to keep having to fork out large wages, insurance, taxes, etc. It is becoming more impossible for some of these people to stay in business. I understand (but don't agree with) why so many do hire illegal aliens. We've had many construction workers and the such at our house over the last couple of years. The Mexican will get out here and work an American boy under the table and then some for $5.00 an hour. But that white boy expects $10.00 an hour and won't hardly work. Where is the fairness in that? Who wants to pay for that? Not me.

My husband came from absolutely nothing. Grew up in a house with holes in the floor. He worked minimum wage jobs and put himself through college and medical school. He never ever whined about that minimum wage and how he was OWED more. He MADE it happen for himself. Anybody and everybody has the same opportunities that he did and can do the same thing he did. He put himself through school with the minimum wage, took care of a family while doing it, had student loans, grants, etc. so it is all possible. It is a matter of what is important to you. I too at one point was a single parent making little money but I worked hard. I proved myself to my employers and got raises one right after the other. Before I knew it I was making more than ever. It certainly wasn't six figures but it was good money. It was about working hard and proving myself. I never stopped and whined about that minimum wage. I just kept working hard which is how I got ahead. Everybody can do this. You just have to try.

I for one understand hard work, I have done it, many times. But the point I have been trying to make is not every employer gives raises, especially in a small town like the one I come from. There was only one major business and that was the paper mill. When a person got a job there they keep it. It is not has black and white in a small town as it is in a big city. The man that had the restaurant could have paid more but didn't want to not even to his kitchen help. Nobody is as you say whining that they are owed more, but what happens when a low wage earner can't keep up with the economy on the rise. I still say it is the government and large companies like your oil, gas and utilities that drive the cost of living up not a low wage earner. When an employer has to pay a wage increase then like you say people lose jobs and who is at fault. The low wager earner uh because they don't go to school. But someone still has to do these low wage jobs. And it will always be the low wage earner that gets shafted. They get the blame for everything, it's like damn if do and damn if you don't. One person can go to school and move on but there will be someone coming in behind them in the same job. Just like your waiter or waitress that work for $2.13 a hour that will not get the raise because of tips that are actually gifts for being a good and polite server. Before they had to claim at the end of the night enough to make their pay equal to what minimum wage was, now they have to claim more whether they make it or not because if they don't claim enough then the company has to pay the difference and they are not going to do that. A persons tips should not be counted, if they made $5.35 a hour and kept their tips there would be no problem.

>If you already make above minimum wage then you will not be getting a raise.

Correct, you're getting a pay cut.

>So the answer is to keep the little guy down no matter what.

No, the answer is the little guy is no more important/deserving than the big guy. If anything he's less.

Oprah was once a little guy. Look what she made of herself.

Piemaker, if the employer will not pay you what you expect to be paid then quit. It is that simple. If no one will work for him then he will have to offer more.

I didn't say six figure incomes are bad, I said do you think a CEO that makes six figures is worth the pay he gets. Name one that is worth six figures. I also grwe up in the same period so try again, We aren't worried about what goes in the Soviet Union, we can't change anything there. This crack,<If you are counting on government laws to provide fairness, and not the natural laws of supply and demand, then you will be disappointed time and time again and will never earn a chance to become truely independent. I think that government is like crack, every addictive. Once you are high on government, it is hard to get off it> is just that a crack. I never said the government will make it fair, I said time and again the government is what makes the costs of living go up, that along with the big oil companies and utility companies nota wage increase that took 10 years to get. Good lord, how can people be so uncompassionate and cut throat.

So you are saying anyone at the bottom of the totem pole is stupid and lazy. Hell why don't we just knock all them worthless people in the head then they would not be a drain on your economy.

Let's check some six figure pay and see if these people deserve what they get.

From The Congressional Institute:
Representatives and Senators currently earn $165,200 per year
The Majority and Minority Leaders in both the House and Senate and the President pro tempore of the Senate earn $180,100. The Speaker of the House earns $208,000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salary Effective Date
$165,200 January 1, 2006
$162,100 January 1, 2005
$158,100 January 1, 2004
$154,700 January 1, 2003
$150,000 January 1, 2002
$145,100 January 1, 2001
$141,300 January 1, 2000
$136,700 January 1, 1998
$133,600 January 1, 1993
$129,500 January 1, 1992
Nice raises every year, they deserve every penny uh. Most of these people own businesses in the private sector that they make money from.

I think we disagree on the principle. No one is against the little man. Most just plain think it will not work.
I would love to see a better living for all. But the federal government is not going to do that simply by mandating it.

I'm in sales. Everytime I ask my boss for a raise he says "great, go out and earn yourself one."

>do you think a CEO that makes six figures is worth the pay he gets. Name one that is worth six figures

Almost all of them. $100,000 isn't a lot of money for the job of running a company, especially if your performance means the difference between billions lost or made.

>I would love to see a better living for all.

No, you wouldn't. If everyone had the same standard of living the world would be a miserable place because we'd all be dirt poor. Economics is about relative values. If you gave everyone in the US $100,000 tomorrow it would be financially devastating, we'd all of a sudden be a lot poorer.

This Agreement, made and entered into on this ____ day of __________,
_____, and made effective as of August 13, 2001, by and between ENRON CORP.,
(Company") and KENNETH L. LAY ("Employee"), is an amendment to that certain
Employment Agreement between the parties entered into and made effective on
December 9, 1996 (the "Employment Agreement").
"3.1 BASE SALARY. During the period beginning on the
Effective Date and ending on December 31, 1996, Employee shall
receive an annual base salary equal to $990,000, which increased to 1.2 million dollars on May 1, 1997 and then increased to 1.3 million dollars on May 1, 1998 through January 31, 2001. For the period beginning February 1, 2001 and ending August 12, 2001, Employee shall receive a minimum annual base salary equal to $975,000. Effective August 13,2001, Employee's minimum annual base salary shall be increased to $1,000,000.00.

He deserved it didn't he, he screwed Thousands of former Enron employees that saw their retirement funds disappear when the energy giant collapsed.

Kenneth Lay was a crook. Isn't he in jail now? Are you saying that people making minimum wage don't steal? Or can't be crooks? I believe crooks come in all shapes, sizes, and social stereotypes...

Pie, I understand exactly where you are coming from with your beliefs, and it scares the living hell out of me knowing elections are coming up.

You aren't going to like hearing this, but you are a prejudiced person - not based on race.... Maybe based on gender (read your own signature)..... and definitely based on those who make 6 figures. You believe they should give a little of that up unconditionally to poor people, just say so and move on... I'm not saying that is even a bad thing. That is what churches, non-profits, and good samaritans do. That is their purpose in the scheme of things. But not big overnment........nuf said...

Yes, he deserved it, he made the company and its stockholders billions of dollars. He was also a crook, but that has nothing to do with his performance as a CEO. Enron was actually an incredibly successful company and practically invented the energy trading business. The fact that some insiders got even greedier and broke the law doesn't change that. How many of you out there actually know (without googling it) what exactly Enron did wrong?

If a man's labor makes your company ten billion dollars, why is $100,000 too much money to pay him for it? That's one hundredth of one percent of the value he added.

And he's not in jail, he died.

Amen.

Thanks for the clarification... as always...