A Horror Story For Four Young Children
A young mother who may have been depressed apparently hanged three of her small daughters and herself in a closet using pieces of clothing and sashes, authorities said Tuesday.
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She was depressed so she killed her kids :confused: Maybe out of crack rock or some other drug. Why not just kill herself ? The drugs ate into her brain like a bad worm so she went on a murder spree. Only good news in this whole thing is the mother is dead the rest is tragedy :nono:
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If they take some else's life, especially their own kids', then OF COURSE they're crazy. Why should they slip away from the death penalty because they're just as psycho as any other creep or freak in our judicial system? As far as these murder-suicide freaks, that's just WRONG! All that does is rob the grieving family's sense of justice. It's monstrous. :nono: |
Anime and Isaac, I usually have a whole lot of respect for the both of you but just lost some at this moment. Apparently it is obvious by both of your posts that you have never seen someone deep in the depths of serious depression and mental illness. I have as we know having had my mom committ suicide only within the last year. There are not words to explain what it is like for these people. I would have never ever ever thought my loving wonderful mom capable of such an act, but in the throes of her illness she obviously was. The one thing my family and I learned is there is not enough help out there for mentally ill patients and doctors are certainly not trained enough to deal with them.
In my reading of this story, no where did I read any references to this woman being on drugs. Did I miss something Isaac? I personally don't think we should speak ill of her when we don't know her situation. What I see when I read her story is a single mother with four children in dire circumstances. Where were people who could help her? I am sure there was someone who should have noticed something amiss with this woman. Where was the father of these children? Was he doing his part? Probably not. Have you ever been the single mother trying to take care of your children with no help from the father? I have and it's not easy and it's extremely depressing. I did pull myself up by the boot straps and did something about my situation. Everybody is not equipped perhaps like myself. Obviously she wasn't. Yes, you can say she didn't have to kill her children. SHE WAS NOT IN HER RIGHT MIND. No mother in her right mind would. So please before you judge her and make your judgements please try and wonder what shoes was she walking in and how heavy they may have been. |
It's kind of a sad story, but it's good to see natural selection still works. I guess it would have been better if she had offed herself before she had kids in the first place, though.
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You know Joe there are those if we believed what you post would say the same about you.
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First you express sympathy for that Sheehan piece of trash and NOW you express if for child killers?!?!?!
These other folks might not see it, but *****, you're ******* crazy!!! |
The world is better off without me for thinking that the world is better off without that nutcase?
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How much longer do we have to put up with his foul mouth ? We can disagree about anything and make our point but this attack dog called brain is way past the line. It is easy to see he has anger management problems and this forum is not the place for a freak like him. I think he is bad for this web site.
Isaac |
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Anime, you are missing the whole point. This mother was in a place so deep and dark that she was not thinking and clearly not capable of thinking rationally. Truly mentally ill patients and especially those suffering from severe depression do not see their actions and the consequences the way that you and I do. I never truly understood this concept until I had witnessed a truly mentally ill person so I understand why it is hard to grasp. I am not excusing her actions. I am saying that this mother in a normal state of mind in all likelihood would not have done this to her children or herself. You have to try and begin to understand mental illness.
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You must drink the cool aid somewhere Sheba. You know what I would encourage you and Anime to do is study depression and study mental illness before you make assumptions. You might be surprised at how well these people can fool you sometimes. One moment they are fine and appear very normal and it is the next second they are taking their life. Yes, it was inhumane what she did but I think it is very safe to assume she was not in a normal state of mind. What normal state of mind would do this? |
Tbelle, I certainly understand from where you are coming from and your rational. But I think the problem is, is that it's impossible to understand the mind of a truly depressed, or broken mind. At least for me it is. For anyone to get to the point of suicide is just beyond my reasoning. Not to mention taking their own children.
Now YES I do understand that the problem does exist for some.. and that people are pulled or pushed to a point of suicide. Even if I can't comprehend getting to that point myself. And I think Anime is just speaking in defense of these young children, who had no say so in the matter. and were dragged down with this obviously psychotic/depressed woman. It is just such an horrendous act.. those of us in our right minds can't get our heads around it, and must simply come to the conclusion that this woman was just out of her freakin' mind and she must be evil. Much less trying to give reason or rhyme to it.. But yes, her mind was BROKEN in some form or fashion. how else could such a thing happen ? |
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Actually, I had suicide prevention training for 4 years in the military. We were taught how to spot people who were on such a brink, because they usually show signs before-hand. Secondly, I passed my college-level psychology course with an A average last year. Depression was part of the course. With that, I have absolutely done my homework, TBelle. When I was in elementary school, a friend of mine committed suicide.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think someone in deep depression is not responsible for their actions, no matter how horrible those actions are or whom they hurt. It's true that they are not in the right state of mind, but public safety is an issue when people are dead. Depression or not, if you kill, you must be removed from society. |
Oh you're an expert Anime!
Did I say she wasn't responsible? No, I didn't. I am stated she is not thinking in a proper frame of mind and therefore can not make proper judgements. Yes, I do think mentally ill people if they are posing a true danger to society should be placed in a proper facility and get the proper treatment. Which brings to mind the biggest problem, there is not enough help for the truly ill and many of the people crowding the facilities are not truly ill. |
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Don't take it so personally because nothing I've said here applies to your mother, TBelle. I sincerely sympathize for your mother as well as your loss. I can do so because she obviously had problems that got the better of her and she didn't get the help she needed. However, someone who takes the life of a child is someone I am far less capable of having sympathy for. |
Your statements apply to every mentally ill patient whether they take the life of a child or not. You are not accepting or understanding how sick these people can get. I am not only defending my own mom but other mentally ill people as well. I am not defending the killing of innocent children.
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Seems to me like the problem solves itself. The world is a better place without her. Probably a better place without her kids, too.
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In spite of that, we are entitled to our opinions and to expressing them here in sincerity of heart just as you are. As stated so many times on these posts, different does not equal wrong. I am constantly learning and forming my views when I read the variety of posts that come up. I am careful to say that I agree/disagree, but never am I critical of the person posting. That would show extreme immaturity - much like discussing your tan lines. We all add value to the discussion. Careful with criticism. It can be very destructive. Mental illness or not, one is responsible for his/her actions. My reaction is shock and grief for the children who were robbed of any chance of loving and laughing and seeing tomorrow's sunrise. For them and for their families, my heart breaks. |
[sarcasm]
Face it Anime, you're arguing with an "expert" whom you can NEVER hope to match in knowledge on the matter because you are fortunate enough to have a mother that didn't take her own life. Who gives a damn about how much official training and education you've received and the credentials you have to support YOUR opinions [/sarcasm] I understand how you feel, TB. I'm the only person here who's ever been accused of murdering a loved one and I'm the mother****ing expert. Except I understand I lack the ability to be objective while discussing those issues not everyone else participating in the conversation |
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You may think you have not been critical of people in your posts but you just got started did you not? I guess it smarts to have your toes stepped on and to have someone disagree so strongly with you. There is a quite a distinction between disagreeing with someone and criticism. It's time to learn the difference. Our legal system does not hold mentally ill people "responsible" for their actions in the same manner a normal person is held accountable. There are times when these people truly do not understand their own actions. You still can not seem to grasp that point. It does not excuse the action nor the horrendous deed done to these precious children, but it's the reality of the situation when a mentally ill mother or father does not get the proper treatment. Until our society which includes people like you begin to understand, recognize, and lobby for more help for the mentally ill these situations will continue to play out over and over again. |
For whomever questioned earlier today whether or not the mother was depressed....
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276087,00.html |
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One life experience does not define all the others who wish to express without disdain. There is no way for you to know the personal experience, knowledge, faith, or varied background that each individual represents. What you can realize is that your's is not the only one represented here. In truth, whether she was mentally competent or not is even an issue. She will not have to face the legal system. As joepole says, problem solved. |
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I suggest this to you before you keep trying to hack away at me for trying to get you to see what perhaps could have led this woman down this road, why don't you take the time to read up on depression? Why don't you Google "Mothers who kill children"? Read those stories and statistics for awhile and see if your attitude changes. Why don't you spend some time perhaps on the Suicide Prevention hotline and talk to these people and see if your attitude changes? I think it would. God did not put us on this earth to tear each other down but rather to lift each other up. These people really need our strong shoulders to lean on and our voices to speak out and get them some help. |
well this thread is going nowhere.. so let me give it another whack ;)
I believe there are two issues here.. as far as how people react to this.. I don't believe that the problem here is that people don't understand "depression". Certainly some people can understand it more than others.. be it personal experience, with one's self or a family member, or just a simple understanding in general. It's not that I don't believe others here would be capable of helping another in need.. or do their best to lift one another's spirit should someone be feeling down and out or depressed. And YES some people get so depressed.. they may need to be hospitalized, or they may need medication. And I'm sure most here can understand that. HOWEVER I believe the problem everyone is having with finding ANY acceptance in this, is the fact that she killed her children. It's a difficult thing to comprehend. I believe it's easier just to be MAD at the mother and be done with it. I've never experienced a family member committing suicide.. but I'm sure possibly one of the early reactions to such a thing, would be to be ANGRY at that person.. only after some reflection, could I try to begin to comprehend why they would do such a thing. However.. if that family member, took out other family members FIRST, and then killed themselves.. I'd be PISSED at them.. and probably stay that way for a long time. I mean come on.. on a good day, you might try to understand why someone would kill them self. But understand why they took out the other family member first.. NO, I would never accept that. I just don't see how I could. Now, if this mother had survived, she would certainly go to trial.. it would be argued whether or not she was competent to stand trial.. As it is, we can only GUESS what was going through her mind. I haven't read any of these news stories, so I don't know the particulars.. but generally speaking.. who knows, maybe she could have been depressed.. but to what degree.. maybe she was depressed, or maybe she was angry, had other motives for killing her children ? I'll say it again.. could be her mind was so freakin' broken from depression.. what other reason could there be right ? But at the same time, even if you can UNDERSTAND depression.. understanding it to a point to accept that this person couldn't be held accountable for killing her own children.. that's another stretch all together. ramble ramble ramble.. sorry. |
Latenight it was a good ramble!
I don't want you to think that I find her actions acceptable or that I am ok with them. I am not by no stretch. In our world more than 29 nations do not even allow the death penalty handed out to mothers who kill children if they are mentally ill. This must tell you something about how serious some people do take this and the thought process many have put into it. Serious research has been done on mothers and depression which is very much the reason why these countries do not allow the harshest of punishments. It is a hard, hard thing to comprehend and understand. I don't fully get it but I do understand it more now than I did a year ago. I can tell you about the anger. Yes, you do get mad at them. You get very mad but the first thing I had to realize was that my mom the one I knew and loved would never have hurt me so much. The one who took her life was not the one who raised me. She was a very ill person who was hurting so much deep in her soul that she thought she was doing the right thing for herself and her children. It all sounds so strange I am sure but it is the way these people think. Lots of these mothers think they are "saving" their children by killing them. To me ultimately what I have learned is that mental illness is very real and one of the most difficult diseases to deal with. I routinely watch a cancer doctor treating his patients and it does not appear to be nearly so difficult as the mentally ill. This has all been my "take" on it and I have sure appreciated yours and Anime's discussion and what you've brought to the table. I am sure we can all take something from this and learn from it. |
This entire situation is such a travesty! Why oh why did she have to kill her children? One by one tying those babies and hanging them...it's so gruesome and awful! I don't understand at all how any mother under any condition could kill her babies!!! May those babies be resting peacefully now in a better place!:angel: :angel: :angel:
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It's just such a horrendous act. To do what she did.. It just takes an extreme understanding.. Your understanding... to take that leap. And I suppose you are right. Bottom line, it's easier for me to accept, her mind was SO BROKEN from depression/psychosis that she could do such a thing.. than to believe there was ANY OTHER reason. It boggles the mind. :peace: |
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BTW Great thoughts, LateNight!! Very well articulated heart felt reaction to this situation. Thanks for taking time to "take a hack at it". Just because I don't jump to the mother's defense does not mean that I lack understanding of depression or haven't read up on statistics. I am a child advocate by career choice and by calling, and it is their perspective that I hold has priority. Mom's the adult killer. She chose to slip those nooses one by one around their necks. It is the children who need the compassion, only they have been denied the chance for their spirits to be lifted.. |
TB, everyone here understand what you are saying. Depression is a harmful disease, but you have to draw the line somewhere, and for most of US, that line is on the other side of harming others in any shape or form and WAAAAY on the other side of hanging children. No argument's right?
When this woman decided to hang her children, the priority became removing her from society, not treating her condition.....which is what you appear to continue to emphasizing because you are an indirect victim of depression. We relate to the children, you're relating to the murderer because of events that have taken place in your life. Just like in the Scott Peterson trial, I related to the guy being accused of murder without any hard evidence proving his guilt....and I STILL feel that way. There was no DNA evidence, no murder weapon, no bullet with ballistics testing matching it to a gun, the guy had already gotten away with 1 affair before, so there wasn't even a motive......and all of that probably sounds just as crazy to you as your story does to the rest of us...because most of you relate to the victim, not the perp....."What if that had been me and my baby".....right? Events in my life have made me sympathetic to those who's guilt is acknowledged based on circumstantial evidence alone, regardless of the crime, just like yours have made you sympathetic to people suffering from depression regardless of how heinous their crimes may be...... I'm trying understanding today, but TB, at some point YOU have to realize everyone here is telling you basically the same thing, because we all know this approach is out of character for me and won't last very long. |
Well I think I edited the above post to death. The point is that we ALL have subjects it is impossible for us to be objective on.
For me it's evidence, for you, TB, it's depression, for Isaac it's religion, for Al it's guns.....and I would think these "conditions" if you will, are more than obvious about each of us to everyone here that's been paying attention. |
No Brain I am no advocating and standing by this woman and trying to justify what she did by no means. It was a heinous act. My sole point is that this mother in her right mind would not have done this. Period. My next point is for these people to get more help BEFORE they get to this point of killing others or themselves. There is not even professional help or compassion for the mentally ill just as there is no longer a belief in "innocent until proven guilty".
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>My sole point is that this mother in her right mind would not have done this. Period.
Then your sole point is incredibly wrong. "Her right mind" from a legal standpoint is the ability to recognize that you are doing something wrong, and that covers plenty of otherwise "crazy" people. In fact, depression almost never results in legal insanity, because depression almost never results in an inability to differentiate between right and wrong. It may make you not care, but it doesn't cloud your judgment to that degree. |
Joepole, did you know that in cases of severe depression and severe post partum depression it often times can lead to psychosis and other mental disorders? I guess you did not.
No my point is not wrong. You honestly think this mother in her right mind would have likely done this? I think not and most of the rest of us agree at least on that much. There is a very fine thin line between legally sane and insane. |
I did know that. Did you know that almost never happens?
>You honestly think this mother in her right mind would have likely done this Depends on what definition of "right mind" you're using. By the legal standard of insanity? Certainly I think someone in "their right mind" could do that. >There is a very fine thin line between legally sane and insane. No, there's a very clear and concise line. I don't have the Texas statutes handy, but I bet the insanity defense it's similar to Louisiana's. If the circumstances indicate that because of a mental disease or mental defect the offender was incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong with reference to the conduct in question, the offender shall be exempt from criminal responsibility. |
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