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-   -   War On The Middle Class (http://www.shreveport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368)

rhertz 10-19-2006 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rough Rider
Back to the war on the middle class.. I'm sick to death of the current political climate.. Democrats and Republicans .. they like to bring up these wedge issues.. Gun Control, Abortion to name a couple.. these things that DIVIDE us.. and things we (the american public) will NEVER agree on. Let's work together on things that affect us all. Affordable health care, securing our borders.. Improving our schools etc.. and let's stop sending ALL OUR DAMN jobs overseas.

Well put. I agree 100% with your thoughts here Rough Rider except one. And it is not that I don't agree with your last statement, but rather your preconception that "we" are sending jobs overseas.

True many jobs are going overseas but why? Corporations are sending them there, right? And who are corporations? Well most are owned not by Americans but by all sorts of nationalities. English, French, Germans, Indians, and others own shares of these stocks. Who owns IBM or Apple? The answer is “people” called investors all over the world in a global competitive economy. Now “our” investments compete with investments from other countries and vice versa. Everything is co-mingled which I think is a good thing. I think commerce promotes peace for one thing. And prosperity for another.

Free markets and competition is good as long as the laws of supply and demand and capitalism are left to naturally maintain a free market balance. There are exceptions usually based on moral issues and sure, human or drug trafficking should be illegal, etc. But other than setting a moral and level playing field with basic laws, I believe that free markets should be left alone to adjust without a whole lot of intervention by politicians and lawyers (big government). If Free Enterprise is good on a national basis and made this country great, then why can’t it be good on a global basis now that the cat (protectionism) is already out of the bag.

I think your feelings (and mine) come from the fact that we are *in transition*. Just like when the telephone company went from “regulation” to “competition”, there was a painful period of “de-regulation” which always sucks in my opinion. The result is a lot of jobs headed overseas to find our new worldwide balance in the marketplace. I just don’t get the warm and fuzzies that making new government laws to stop sending jobs overseas would be the right thing to do. Usually governments come up with ideas like taxes or tariffs that make the incentive a little less potent. These taxes may go away after the result is achieved, but this helps to buffer a sudden shift.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rough Rider
It seems that I "may" have been accused of being an "isolationist" recently on these boards.. nothing could be further from the truth.. I fully understand that we live in a Global Market place these days.. But I don't see how allowing American Companies to send all their jobs overseas is supposed to help me, an avererage American citizen ????

o.k. done with my rant, sorry.

I see no need to apologize. Your “rant” is a well stated opinion, and I feel pretty much the same. But I just don’t know what to do about the problem. Let it run its course? That seems difficult. Intervene in a free market? That too is a can of worms.. Nobody said these things were easy. :)

Rough Rider 10-20-2006 12:57 AM

o.k. so I understand your argument for free trade and the like.

when I think of all the manufacturing jobs 'that got sent overseas'. We told these people, train for the future, computers, technologies... was the wave of the future.. So they trained.. got good jobs.

Now with computers and the 'wave of the future', companies are able to send all these new jobs overseas as well. Computer programmers, network engineers, auto manufacturers etc.. good paying jobs are overseas. almost 2 million jobs over the past 3 years have gone overseas. With no end in sight. Now some of these people are working 2 and 3 minimum wage jobs tryin' to make ends meet.

These companies get tax 'breaks' by outsourcing.. via "unrepatriated earnings"

Just trying to figure out as more and more of these types of jobs go overseas.. what's that leave the 'american worker' ? ?
Except working at Walmart or something ?

I understand your desire to the let the market work itself out. Just seems sometimes at the other side of that working out.. we end up with fewer jobs here. How's that help us ?

And regarding joepole's comments.. as far as what items I purchase that may or may not be overseas.. I appreciate that.. I have tried.. Always purchased "American" automobiles.. of course now more and more of those are made overseas.. I can think of a few Amercian services I've had.. of couse now when I call for support of some kind, I can't understand the tech on the other side because of the broken English.. Sure maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.. but the whole thing just gives me a bad feeling.

Rough Rider http://www.shreveport.com/forums/cus...vatar129_1.gif

rhertz 10-20-2006 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rough Rider
o.k. so I understand your argument for free trade and the like.

when I think of all the manufacturing jobs 'that got sent overseas'. We told these people, train for the future, computers, technologies... was the wave of the future.. So they trained.. got good jobs.

Now with computers and the 'wave of the future', companies are able to send all these new jobs overseas as well. Computer programmers, network engineers, auto manufacturers etc.. good paying jobs are overseas. almost 2 million jobs over the past 3 years have gone overseas. With no end in sight. Now some of these people are working 2 and 3 minimum wage jobs tryin' to make ends meet.

This is very true, especially for specific industries like “call centers”, “radiology”, and “programmers” which are industries where the Internet aids in “telecommunication”. Yet I find it interesting that Shreveport hosts US Support, a call center for Verizon and other carriers. And then there is the CenturyTel call center, also on the Industrial loop. I guess that makes Shreveport the next best thing to offshoring to India! ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rough Rider
These companies get tax 'breaks' by outsourcing.. via "unrepatriated earnings"

Just trying to figure out as more and more of these types of jobs go overseas.. what's that leave the 'american worker' ? ?
Except working at Walmart or something ?

Well you asked? :) It leaves very low cost goods for sale at Walmart. And for good or bad, US citizens will buy Internet from Bellsouth rather than a good local independent ISP as long as the price is a buck cheaper. We like our screw drivers and flashlights, and crescent wrenches for $2.. Why buy them for $6+ from a locally owned business selling US made goods? The fact is that “we” won’t buy them to a great extent. As in so many things, follow the dollar! Why not “go with it”. Greed can be good, in a Free Enterprise system. Just food for thought, mind you……

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rough Rider
I understand your desire to the let the market work itself out. Just seems sometimes at the other side of that working out.. we end up with fewer jobs here. How's that help us ?

Ah, you bring up a good point. Sometimes when the market doesn’t seem to balance out in due time, I get suspicious. In short, I would not be surprised to find out that certain people or corporations are abusing the system. I guess the question becomes to what extent? But in the end, the Free Enterprise system is very resilient. For every job lost, two new ones seem to spring up to take their place. Not always, but a lot of the time. This sucks if you are a radiologist, programmer, engineer, or call center worker being laid off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rough Rider
And regarding joepole's comments.. as far as what items I purchase that may or may not be overseas.. I appreciate that.. I have tried.. Always purchased "American" automobiles.. of course now more and more of those are made overseas.. I can think of a few Amercian services I've had.. of couse now when I call for support of some kind, I can't understand the tech on the other side because of the broken English.. Sure maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.. but the whole thing just gives me a bad feeling.

LOL, my Amsouth mortgage was sold to Chase who now offshores their call center. I know what you mean. I have the same problem calling Dish Network. There is something to be said for “local flavor”. However I bet that local products and services will increasingly be seen as premium services. Compare the price of a burger and fries at Strawns verses McDonalds or Burger King. It’s about 2X and whether it is worth it or not, let the consumer decide. I think Strawn’s is worth it. Plus I want some strawberry pie. But the major of Americans go to McD’s or BK, which is like offshoring.. LOL

joepole 10-20-2006 09:00 AM

Fast Food
 
McD's and BK are like the opposite of offshoring: they're using systems designed to maximize output from local, unskilled workers. And they do a damn good job. Their food sucks, but most people don't care about what they eat, just as long as it's fast, cheap, and what they were expecting.

Rough Rider 10-20-2006 09:32 AM

thanks for the info all.. Feel like I have a bit of a better understanding of outsourcing anyway. In the end however, it seems to sum up this way... Outsourcing only blows if say for example.. I'M the one who loses my job ?

I just get this bad feeling when I hear something like IBM is laying off some 50,000 people here in the states and they are hiring some 30,000 people in India. I read an article the other day, where Apple Computer was doing away with their Call center here in the states, and was transferring it to I think India.. but in the end, they changed their mind. Now I know plenty of their hardware is made overseas. I just hate calling some place for help, cause I have a REAL HARD TIME understanding broken english.

TGIF !

rhertz 10-20-2006 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joepole
McD's and BK are like the opposite of offshoring: they're using systems designed to maximize output from local, unskilled workers. And they do a damn good job. Their food sucks, but most people don't care about what they eat, just as long as it's fast, cheap, and what they were expecting.

I see your point regarding local labor. My analogy was regarding "out of towners" verses locally owned restaurants. And yeah I know many local investors own McD franchises etc., therefore by analogy is admittedly flawed and a bad choice. sorry. Another mistake I made in that long post was the term "telecommunication" when I meant "tele-commuting". It was late. But I guess either term works in that case.

I do agree their food sucks and I often feel funny searching for something good to eat while I drown in a sea of fast food strip malls. I guess my current favorite is a Ciabatta bread sandwich from Wendy's. I can hardly stomach a burger from most places anymore.

rhertz 10-20-2006 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rough Rider
thanks for the info all.. Feel like I have a bit of a better understanding of outsourcing anyway. In the end however, it seems to sum up this way... Outsourcing only blows if say for example.. I'M the one who loses my job ?

I just get this bad feeling when I hear something like IBM is laying off some 50,000 people here in the states and they are hiring some 30,000 people in India. I read an article the other day, where Apple Computer was doing away with their Call center here in the states, and was transferring it to I think India.. but in the end, they changed their mind. Now I know plenty of their hardware is made overseas. I just hate calling some place for help, cause I have a REAL HARD TIME understanding broken english.

TGIF !

Nodding, I know what you mean there Rough Rider. I didn't mean to be a "hard nose" about offshoring or outsourcing. It's just that after a little study, I found out that I'm not quite on the side that I thought I was on. It really is hard to protect our economy without hurting it, if you catch my drift. That's all I wanted to say. You know, sometimes maybe it just sucks being #1 in a new world order. :)

Rough Rider 10-21-2006 01:06 PM

On a lighter note, let's just DROP the big one :eek: It'll be fun.
Check out Randy Newman's "let's drop the big one" It's got some English guy talkin' for a few seconds... But I like the song that follows.

This site sure seems to slow down on the weekends don't it ?

Rough Rider.

rhertz 10-22-2006 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rough Rider
On a lighter note, let's just DROP the big one :eek: It'll be fun. Check out Randy Newman's "let's drop the big one" It's got some English guy talkin' for a few seconds... But I like the song that follows.

I remember that guy. He sang "Short People".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rough Rider
This site sure seems to slow down on the weekends don't it ?

Nodding, I think the peak time is Tuesday and Wednesday when there is nothing better to do, and the slow time is Sat and Sun when folks are spending time offline with family, friends, or R&R or just enjoying this beautiful weather outside.

Isaac-Saxxon 10-22-2006 07:28 AM

Early to bed.............
 
While you lay sleeping you miss the best part of the day. Good Morning !!!
I have the same hours six days a week and can not sleep in on Sunday
even when I stay out late. Ya know I think it is part of the middle class
thing. Morning Glory's only bloom in the morning. I do so love the sun rise
and the rebirth of another day while the sun set is very nice too it is time
to take rest and reflect. Child of the day. I think its good that we are all
so different my wife is a child of the night so we both have our quiet time.

LateNight 10-22-2006 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isaac-Saxxon
While you lay sleeping you miss the best part of the day. Good Morning !!!

You all quit makin' all this damn noise.. people tryin' to sleep around here ;)

top of the mornin' back at ya.


LateNight


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