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Old 08-30-2007, 07:12 AM   #31
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Texasbelle has been in Colorado. Just got back and my oh my what a discussion you have all been having. Let me tell you it was great seeing only what God himself created.

I don't know what I can add to this discussion all of my thoughts on this have been been pretty much laid out there already by Isaac, Pokie, Huldah, and Vixweb. It 's interesting to me that the word of God is so very distinctly clear but yet churches and pastors get so caught up in symbols, traditions, money, etc. and forget to focus on the very simple word. And to me it' just that simple the Bible. Study it, learn it , teach it, and apply it.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:43 AM   #32
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Pocahontas has some questions about Catholicism, so here are the answers. (For further reading, "Catholic Answers" www.Catholic.com is a reliable resource for Catholic teaching.
Matty I have some questions regarding Catholics and I sincerely would like to know the answers behind them. I'm not being callous.
1. Why is it almost impossible to get a divorce? Why does it have to be called an annulment as if it never happened when there is a divorce?
2. Why is there confession of your innermost secrets when you can go directly to our Father without anyone else hearing about it?
3. Why can only Catholics take Holy communion in the Catholic church?
1. "Why is it almost impossible to get a divorce? Why does it have to be called an annulment as if it never happened when there is a divorce?" Divorce has become something very popular in the last 40 years or so, and is something obtainable regardless of the Church. However, the Church has was is called an annulment, which is a lengthy investigation to determine if the couple married by their own free will, psychological concerns, etc.. Basically, the tribunal looks to see if there was ever a valid marriage in the first place.

Biblically speaking, a divorced person who remarries is committing adultery (Matthew 19:9 "Whoever divorces his wife except for fornication and marries another woman commits adultery.") When an annulment is granted, basically the Church tribunal says the marriage was invalid from the get-go. An example to illustrate this concept.
A friend of mine was getting married. Part of the marriage conditions in the Catholic Church are that the couple must be here of their own free will, have the desire to get married to each other, the usual. My friend and her husband said yes to all. Many years later, they were divorced and going through the annulment process, when my friend's husband confessed he lied and claimed that he didn't really want to get married in the first place.
This, combined with other factors of the time of marriage, are reason to declare the marriage was never valid in the first place.

2. "Why is there confession of your innermost secrets when you can go directly to our Father without anyone else hearing about it?" This is a great question! Confession was something instituted by Christ after his resurrection as found in the Gospels of Matthew and John (as found below).
The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is confession: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Minor or venial sins can be confessed directly to God, but for grave or mortal sins, which crush the spiritual life out of the soul, God has instituted a different means for obtaining forgiveness—the sacrament known popularly as confession, penance, or reconciliation.

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23).
The above paragraphs follow the concept of "Apostolic Succession", a core belief of the Catholic Church.

A secondary product of confession is the humbling of one's self to tell those innermost secrets. In my personal experience, the sins are not just in my head, but they are now out on the table, in front of the priest, who is not there to condemn you, but to serve as Christ's representative in the forgiveness and absolving of sins(see "apostolic succession").

3. "Why can only Catholics take Holy communion in the Catholic church?" Another great question! Catholics believe that Holy Communion is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ in what is called "The Eucharist", and that God grants special graces through the reception of the Eucharist.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever" (John 6:53–58).
This is a constant bone of contention between Catholics and Protestants, but that is another thread for another day. My goal is simply educating on the belief of the Catholic Church.
Scripture is clear that partaking of the Eucharist is among the highest signs of Christian unity: "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17). For this reason, it is normally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive Holy Communion, for to do so would be to proclaim a unity to exist that, regrettably, does not.

Another reason that many non-Catholics may not ordinarily receive Communion is for their own protection, since many reject the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Scripture warns that it is very dangerous for one not believing in the Real Presence to receive Communion: "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died" (1 Cor. 11:29–30).
Vixweb, you are correct in your assertion that Christ did not institute things like "pointy hats" or "swinging incense". The pomp and circumstance of the Mass are human inventions, all with meaning, and all intended to enhance our worship of God. The climax of our worship at Mass is the Eucharist (see above) which was instituted by Christ himself (see above and John 6:53-58). I encourage you to read this discussion from Catholic Answers regarding the concept of "no salvation outside of the Catholic Church." It may clear up some of your misconceptions.
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:24 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by MattyMattyChooChoo View Post
1. "Why is it almost impossible to get a divorce? Why does it have to be called an annulment as if it never happened when there is a divorce?" Divorce has become something very popular in the last 40 years or so, and is something obtainable regardless of the Church. However, the Church has was is called an annulment, which is a lengthy investigation to determine if the couple married by their own free will, psychological concerns, etc.. Basically, the tribunal looks to see if there was ever a valid marriage in the first place.

Biblically speaking, a divorced person who remarries is committing adultery (Matthew 19:9 "Whoever divorces his wife except for fornication and marries another woman commits adultery.") When an annulment is granted, basically the Church tribunal says the marriage was invalid from the get-go. An example to illustrate this concept.
A friend of mine was getting married. Part of the marriage conditions in the Catholic Church are that the couple must be here of their own free will, have the desire to get married to each other, the usual. My friend and her husband said yes to all. Many years later, they were divorced and going through the annulment process, when my friend's husband confessed he lied and claimed that he didn't really want to get married in the first place.
This, combined with other factors of the time of marriage, are reason to declare the marriage was never valid in the first place.
Wow... Nothing against Catholics or Christians of any kind, but I am SO glad none of this applies to me. Things are so much simpler and natural in my tradition.
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Old 08-30-2007, 12:40 PM   #34
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Church dogma is like a basket over a candle. You pay for your "annulment" depending on how much you make. To say you were never married is laughable at very best You took the vow and got the license and then "consummated" it and you want to go back and say it never happened ? The Catholic Church is a state run church from Rome. It is the rituals that are traditions of man and skew the truth. Reading in monotone sort of chant and swinging smoke around and then holy water ?? Christ is not good enough to hear my prayers and confessions ???? Matty you sound as hard wired into the system as you can get.

Historical note about the defeat of the Spanish Armada

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The Spanish Armada was a fleet assembled and dispatched by King Phillip II of Spain in attempt to invade England in 1588. His attempt was unsuccessful. Queen Elizabeth I of England held the defeat of the armada as one of her greatest achievements, assisting the decline of the Spanish Empire. The armada had a mission of both political and religious aims. King Phillip, the leader of the Roman Catholic Spain, was not able to stop a revolt in of his Protestant subjects in the Netherlands, a revolt which began in 1566, aided by Protestant England. By 1586, Phillip had decided that he could not defeat the Dutch until he had defeated England first. Long time religious rivalry between Spain and England was hoped to be resolved by King Phillip in the dethroning of Queen Elizabeth, reconverting England to Catholicism. The plan for conquering had begun. This plan consisted of the coordination of a fleet to sail from Spain and an army from the Netherlands to create a simultaneous invasion of England. His force of 130 ships and more than 30,000 men was to be led by Alonso Peréz Guzmán, duke of Medina- Sidonia. England was aware of the Spanish plans, attacking it at Cádiz, Spain in 1587, succeeding in delaying it for a year. By July of 1588, the armada was spotted off the coast of England on July 29. Lord Charles Howard intercepted it with a larger English fleet near Plymouth, and for the next week made small attacks on the Spanish in battles off of Plymouth, Portland Bill, and the Isle of Wight. Unable to break the Spanish Armada, they waited for their chance at a big blow. The opportunity finally arrived when the armada anchored near Calais, France, hoping to join troops scheduled to sail from the Netherlands. Ingeniously, Howard ordered ships set on fire to be sent against the armada, producing a panic that broke the Spanish formation. In the ensuing battle of Gravelines, on August 8, the Spanish were defeated by England and the armada sailed home with remaining ships that were heavily damaged to Spain; 67 of the original 130 ships reached Spain, most in poor condition.

The War however between England and Spain lasted until 1604, despite the defeat of the Spanish Armada. Yet the defeat brought about English nationalism, securing Protestantism as England’s state religion. In contrast, for Spain it was a humiliating defeat, nearly destroying the national treasury of Spain.

My point is "L" who is our Father will never let the traditions of man and the mind game that comes with it to prevail at the end of the day !! This goes for Evangelicals too. They just have a different dog and pony show. Christianity is just that ! Christianity and no one has a corner on the market except for Christ Himself ! I take Communion when I am by myself and use olive oil as in James chapter 5 ! I think it is the most personal and private thing I do. I have no problem at all doing it in a large group but it is still very personal and is showing obedience to God not to any man.
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Old 08-30-2007, 02:34 PM   #35
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Matty I appreciate your detailed responses to my questions. I still am left with a feeling that if it's not the Catholic way it's the wrong way...which to me I find hypocritical. Ex. using words like "the tribunal" decides this and that sounds like they (the Catholic congregation) have more authority than Christ?? But again you are describing the Catholic faith as you stated. We can agree to disagree I suppose. That is what forums are about.
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Old 08-30-2007, 02:35 PM   #36
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I'd like to know why nuns, when asked about their views on evolution, respond by hitting you with a Bible.

Did you go to Catholic school, Anime? I find that surprising!
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Old 08-30-2007, 04:41 PM   #37
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I just can't believe this happened. I just spent an hour on a reply to these articles and all the related posts, and then I was dumped from the server and it's all gone.
Yeah I hate it when that happens.. Sometimes when I spend a long time on a post, I compose it in Word and paste it then submit. Then if things don't work out, I still have it in Word.

But even when I don't do that, I will do a ctrl-A (Select All) and a ctrl-C (Copy to clipboard) so if things don't work out, I can paste it and try again. Only on long posts though.
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Old 08-30-2007, 04:50 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Pocahontas View Post
Did you go to Catholic school, Anime? I find that surprising!
No, I didn't. No way!

Actually, it was a friend of mine back years ago who did go to Catholic school. He left Catholism after a nun bashed him in the head with a Bible over a curious question about evolution. He felt it was awfully unChristian to be so violent with a kid over something so small.
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Old 08-30-2007, 06:30 PM   #39
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Texasbelle has been in Colorado. Just got back and my oh my what a discussion you have all been having. Let me tell you it was great seeing only what God himself created.

I don't know what I can add to this discussion all of my thoughts on this have been been pretty much laid out there already by Isaac, Pokie, Huldah, and Vixweb. It 's interesting to me that the word of God is so very distinctly clear but yet churches and pastors get so caught up in symbols, traditions, money, etc. and forget to focus on the very simple word. And to me it' just that simple the Bible. Study it, learn it , teach it, and apply it.


Amen!

Unfortunately I have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church. And fortunately for all of you, I don't intend on shareing them all here.
I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic Church. I went to a Catholic school. I went to mass A LOT. It became clear to me that for many Catholics "Sacred Tradition" is more important than the Word of God. I could litterally go on for hours, but I promise you I won't.
I have to start with the amission that I am far from perfect, and won't even pretend that I am close.
You are each free to choose how you will love and follow our Heavenly Father, and so am I. I choose to do my best to follow God's plan, but to do that I must learn what his plan is. To do that I read and study His Word. I don't claim to say that I can or want to do that on my own. There are plenty of useful tools out there that help. . . . The Smith's Bible Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible. My mother once told me, "Catholic Priests have interpreted the bible for us for 2000 years, it is not our place to question that." I love my mother very much, but God the Father told us "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man." Jer 17:5.
So, now I say that I will not tell any Christian "you will go to hell if you do not believe as I do." As a very well studied Bible Scholor that I study with says, "Each of us have to sail our own ship." When we face our Father for our final judgment, we will face Him alone. No priest or pastor or reverand or preacher will be standing there with us. So I guess I will decide for myself how I will love my Father, and I will do my best to respect everyone elses personal choice in the matter.
Alleluia (Praise be to God)!
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Old 08-30-2007, 06:32 PM   #40
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Yeah I hate it when that happens.. Sometimes when I spend a long time on a post, I compose it in Word and paste it then submit. Then if things don't work out, I still have it in Word.

But even when I don't do that, I will do a ctrl-A (Select All) and a ctrl-C (Copy to clipboard) so if things don't work out, I can paste it and try again. Only on long posts though.
What a great tip. Thanks. If I write my post in word first, I can take all the time I want and then just cut and paste. Thanks
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:17 PM   #41
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Great post Huldah!
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Old 08-31-2007, 06:32 AM   #42
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Amen!

Unfortunately I have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church. And fortunately for all of you, I don't intend on sharing them all here.
I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic Church. I went to a Catholic school. I went to mass A LOT. It became clear to me that for many Catholics "Sacred Tradition" is more important than the Word of God. I could literally go on for hours, but I promise you I won't.
I have to start with the admission that I am far from perfect, and won't even pretend that I am close.
You are each free to choose how you will love and follow our Heavenly Father, and so am I. I choose to do my best to follow God's plan, but to do that I must learn what his plan is. To do that I read and study His Word. I don't claim to say that I can or want to do that on my own. There are plenty of useful tools out there that help. . . . The Smith's Bible Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible. My mother once told me, "Catholic Priests have interpreted the bible for us for 2000 years, it is not our place to question that." I love my mother very much, but God the Father told us "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man." Jer 17:5.
So, now I say that I will not tell any Christian "you will go to hell if you do not believe as I do." As a very well studied Bible Scholar that I study with says, "Each of us have to sail our own ship." When we face our Father for our final judgment, we will face Him alone. No priest or pastor or reverend or preacher will be standing there with us. So I guess I will decide for myself how I will love my Father, and I will do my best to respect everyone else's personal choice in the matter.
Alleluia (Praise be to God)!

"Cursed be the man that trusteth in man." Jer 17:5.

Huldah, after authenticating the book and prophesying a future of destruction for failure to follow it, ends by reassuring King Josiah that because of his piety, God has heard his prayer and "thou shalt be gathered unto thy grave in peace, neither shall thy eyes see all the evil which I shall bring upon this place." (II Kings 22:20).

Huldah appears in the Hebrew Bible only in nine verses, II Kings 22:13-20, II Chronicles 34:22-28. This short narrative is sufficient to make clear that Huldah was regarded as a prophetess accustomed to speaking the word of God directly to high priests and royal officials, to whom high officials came in supplication, who told kings and nations of their fates, who had the authority to determine what was and was not the genuine Law, and who spoke in a manner of stern command when acting as a prophetess. Nonetheless the Bible does not offer the sort of background information it typically does with other pivotal prophets. Indeed, we are left knowing more about her husband's background than we know of hers, and the little information we know of her personally is largely in relation to her husband.

Now if anyone thinks a woman can not be a prophetess of God you might want to rethink it. When you hear a teacher, preacher/priest tell you females should not teach the Word and be seen and not heard ? Do not mess will Huldah or Debra !!


Deborah or Dvora (Hebrew: דְּבוֹרָה, Standard Dəvora Tiberian Dəḇôrāh ; "Bee") was a prophetess and the fourth Judge and only female Judge of pre-monarchic Israel in the Old Testament (Tanakh). Her story is told twice in chapters 4 and 5 of Judges. The first account is prose, relating the victory of Israelite forces led by General Barak, whom Deborah called forth but prophesied would not achieve the final victory over the Canaanite general Sisera himself. That honor went to Jael, the wife of Heber, a Kenite tentmaker. Jael killed Sisera by driving a tent peg through his head as he slept.
God Speed Huldah,Pokie, Vixweb and Tbelle !
Matty with all do respect please take this truth in consideration please Sir !
It is a matter of everyones eternal soul !!
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Old 09-01-2007, 05:09 AM   #43
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Old 09-01-2007, 07:35 AM   #44
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Why is the Bible and Christianity such a lighting rod ? It is the cutting edge of truth and brings light which dispels darkness. Satan has his minions doing their work and they know the hour glass is just about empty. Traditions of man are a waste of precious time. If you want the real facts about Christianity and a better relationship with your Father read the Bible and pray for knowledge.
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Old 09-01-2007, 10:13 AM   #45
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Great post Huldah. You absolutely summed up my thoughts on this very subject as well. I don't believe in telling anyone in how they should or should not believe or worship. We must each decide that for ourselves because just like you point out we shall all be held accountable individually.

My 12 y/o is already beginning to understand and study the Word of God for himself. I will not interpret it for him. I want him to do that himself and develop his own belief system. He already gets it on a deeper level than most pastors I have encountered.
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