It's Time To Remember Sept. 11, 2001 Attacks

[sbl_admin]

The Nation will pause today to reflect and observe the moments when four hijacked planes struck the World Trade Center, Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania.
FOX_News

[geodood]

Yet another 911 aniversary without major incident. Each year I think the same thing. We have made it X years without another 911. I have to say that I never thought we would make it this long. I am very elated by that fact!! I just think that if a few handfuls of evil individuals can cause that level of devistation, then it would have from now on, maybe on a smaller level, but with some regularity. I am no less shocked today than on 9/11/01 by the overall magnitude of what happened. How could this have happened? What type of human being could do such a thing?d How can 19 people literally change our structure of government? Our own politicians do not even hold that kind of power.

[rhertz]

Chertoff looks like the undead mummy of a host of "The Crypt". You know, that old series on HBO... Oh nevermind.... I don't trust him after 911 AND Katrina. Fool me once...........

[Bob]

Originally Posted by geodood

Yet another 911 aniversary without major incident. Each year I think the same thing. We have made it X years without another 911. I have to say that I never thought we would make it this long. I am very elated by that fact!! I just think that if a few handfuls of evil individuals can cause that level of devistation, then it would have from now on, maybe on a smaller level, but with some regularity. I am no less shocked today than on 9/11/01 by the overall magnitude of what happened. How could this have happened? What type of human being could do such a thing?d How can 19 people literally change our structure of government? Our own politicians do not even hold that kind of power.

True, that we haven't been hit as hard as we did on 9-11, but that same group of people is responsible for a few other large attacks since then elsewhere in the world. That train bombing in Spain comes to mind ? But yes, I'm glad we haven't been hit. What I am constantly amazed about since 9-11 is that right after this event.. This country was as UNITED as it has ever been since WWII. The outpouring of patriotism, and the amount of support we received from countries around the world. When we went into Afghanistan and carpet bombed the place to hell and back looking for Bin Laden, there wasn't a person or a country I think that said it wasn't DUE.

But this country has been so DIVIDED by the actions of our President since this event. How many U.S. service men and woman have we lost in Iraq. how many innocent lives have been lost in Iraq. How much money have we spent !?? AND FOR WHAT ??

There are those who may consider me unpatriotic for asking such questions, but I think it makes me all the more so. O.k. sure we got rid of Sadam, and he was a bastard, and he had it coming. But at this PRICE ?? I honestly don't ever see anything good coming from this adventure into Iraq.

Bob.

[rhertz]

Bob, I don't think you are unpatriotic for asking those questions. All I can say is that I don't think that we are privy to all the information that "intelligence" is privy to. So we must remember that we are "back seat drivers" when it comes to running the country. I also have a hard time bridging the divide between Al Qaeda and Iraq. I don't always see the connection. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. Just not that we know ofanyway. Either Iraq is a big mistake or a brilliant manover to save our country and way of life. I think it is too early to tell, after all, the first Islamic nuke has yet to detonate. I'm not sure how I might feel after that fact.

But at a very basic level, and I know this must sound pretty bad, but Isamic fundamentalists brought down two towers and they have payed the priced of lossing two Islamic fundamentalist countrys to democracy in return. (at least in theory - Afganistan and Iraq) Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, which is the only thing those evil b@stards understand over there. If they hit us again, then they should loose another facist country. They will get a clue quick enough after 4 or 5 countries before betting the farm..... KISS Keep It Simple Stupid... works for me.

[Rough Rider]

Sounds like someone is a big FOX NEWS fan ??

Originally Posted by rhertz

All I can say is that I don't think that we are privy to all the information that "intelligence" is privy to. So we must remember that we are "back seat drivers" when it comes to running the country.

Hello ? Backseat drivers ? they work for US remember ?
And you don't send this country into war because "I know a secret.. and you don't" If you want to send in some volunteer group to take out Sadam because you know a secret that's one thing.. But you don't convince the country with a slew of different reasons that don't appear to be true, spend 300+ BILLION DOLLARS, thousands of soldiers dead because SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE knows a secret ???

Originally Posted by rhertz

I also have a hard time bridging the divide between Al Qaeda and Iraq. I don't always see the connection. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. Just not that we know ofanyway. Either Iraq is a big mistake or a brilliant manover to save our country and way of life. I think it is too early to tell, after all, the first Islamic nuke has yet to detonate. I'm not sure how I might feel after that fact.

LOL you ain't the only one who can't see connection! And because some Islamic Nuke might go off ? more than likely from SOMEWHERE else like I don't know.. IRAN maybe ? we should be in Iraq ????

Originally Posted by rhertz

But at a very basic level, and I know this must sound pretty bad, but Isamic fundamentalists brought down two towers and they have payed the priced of lossing two Islamic fundamentalist countrys to democracy in return. (at least in theory - Afganistan and Iraq) Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, which is the only thing those evil b@stards understand over there. If they hit us again, then they should loose another facist country. They will get a clue quick enough after 4 or 5 countries before betting the farm..... KISS Keep It Simple Stupid... works for me.

O.k. so somebody took out our eye with a shot at the twin towers.. Yes, lets go into Afghanistan and take out those bastards, and lets gets BIN LADEN.. who is still out there. But then we went to take out Sadam, and gave up the other eye and arm and leg in the process.

This Blind Faith you speak of.. because "They must know what they are doing" just scares the crap out of me. At the beginning of this war.. even then I knew it was bad idea.. but plenty of Bush supporters would tell me 'oh they must know what they are doing" even those folks who I talk to now are starting to come around and ask the question WTF are we doing in IRAQ??

I will go back to lurking for now

Rough Riders!

[rhertz]

Rough Rider, I don’t think that it is a matter of one big “secret” but more like 100,000 small but significant secrets maintained by trained professional agents at our intelligence agencies. But you make a good point that they all work for us and therefore should give us enough declassified information in order to understand the general logic of the mission. I would think that they would want to rally public support for many reasons.

Now you may or may not trust the “intel” community in general, and I admit I sometimes have my concerns there as well, such as the reports of WMD’s and how they up and disappeared from Iraq (or were never there). Even if they somehow got it wrong and made a blunder, there are many other times when they do get it right and save lives, thank God.

This might be a poor analogy but I will try to make a point. Doctors may work for a hospital, but I don’t always want hospital business administrators calling the shots when it comes to my health, which should be between me and my doctor, regardless of who signs his paycheck. Yet I do think that doctors should provide enough layman’s information so that I as a patient can have a general clue to what’s going on, even if I never can or will understand every detail in medical science, not being a doctor myself. (and neither is the administrator is my point) We may all collectively own the “hospital”, but are we qualified to make those hard decisions such as war? I know congress can vote and the President can declare war, but has the population ever voted on the matter? Like investors in a company, we vote on our heads of state giving them substantial powers to make hard decisions and not put every issue to a public vote.

I don’t expect Clinton or Bush or any President to understand every detail in modern day intelligence and warfare, but I do expect every President to assemble a team who is in line with his overall objective which in this case is to stop terrorism dead in its tracks. How that is accomplished surely involves CIA and secret service agencies, military generals and admirals, and a whole host of highly educated and trained personnel who makes detail plans to accomplish the directive. When the President gets it wrong, so does a LOT of other individuals. As a basic citizen, I don’t really feel like I am in a very good position to judge what these intel people have to offer, and I doubt they all agree with each other 100% of the time. (but they do know a lot more than I do)

I really hope that regardless of their proposals or decisions, they all want to see our country safe, secure, and free and are working towards that same goal. Over time history will reveal who was right and who was wrong, and I am glad it isn’t me who must make those hard decisions. I would not want be the one to send a soldier to his possible death, nor feel the burden of knowing that had I sent a soldier in (to his possible death), that 1000’s of innocent civilian lives could have been saved. Those are tough choices indeed and they should be made by people a lot smarter than I am. (Speaking for myself only)

As far as sending a volunteer group to take out Saddam, didn’t we take assassinations off the table years ago? ;-) I have no problem with a little “political incorrectness”. After all, he did try to put a hit on a US president. I agree that might have been a quick and easy way to solve that problem, if that was indeed the only problem in the crosshairs of our government.

But maybe it was more than just taking out Saddam. Perhaps we choose the time and place in Iraq to demonstrate to the enemy that we can and will choose the time and place of such conflicts. Our message to the world should be that 9/11 was a lucky blow that will never happen again, and not that we can bend over and take it. Perhaps we are in Iraq simply because it pisses off the enemy that we can do what they said could not be done. If we are in the wrong place, then why does it inflame the Islamic fundamentalists so darn much? Why do they march into that land and commit suicide attacks? We must be doing something right or else they would stay and home and pray and make sure their wives are behaving. Would it be better if someone who wants to murder you and your family to stay hidden or come to Iraq to (hopefully) die at the hands of Iraqi and American solders before they kill someone here say in New York at their own hand and terms. Hell I really don’t know.

But my momma once said that you got to break some eggs if you are going to bake a cake! (Now that ought to scare the heck out of you.) LOL, peace and take care Rough Rider. Sorry for the long rambling post. Had too much time on my hands I guess.

[Rough Rider]

rhertz,
glad to see you are asking yourself some of the 'right' questions. and more of that needs to happen these days... by everyone.

And you are correct, only history knows how this will all turn out.
But I think Bush senior had it right.. he formed a coalition, from many countries.. all agreed, get Iraq and Sadam out of Kuwait. And Bush senior knew there was no way we could GO INTO IRAQ, and ever get out with a good ending. We maintained the support of many nations during that time.
But we lost much of that support when we decided to go into Iraq, and it split this country up as well. WE ALL AGREED to go into Afghanistan. And the country and most of the world was united in this effort to rid the world of the Taliban and Bin Laden. But when we told a hand full of "lies" as to why we needed to go into Iraq, and how their OIL was going to pay for it all.. is what made us lose support across the globe and split this country in half.

Yes I'll be the first to admit we needed to get rid of Sadam, and he was a bastard and a half.. but this plan of going into Iraq and forcing Democracy at the point of gun, just ain't gonna work.. The second we leave that place, those people are gonna fight it out amongst themselves and someone will take control.

Why did we take troops out of Afghanistan and send them to Iraq when Bin Laden was still hiding out somewhere in Afghanistan ?? we need to catch that crazy bastard.

You mentioned how the government would want to "rally public support" yea sure they do, and they do a good job of it.. everytime they speak you hear "9-11, Terrorism, and Iraq" all blended together, like Iraq was behind the 9-11 attack when we know it was Bin Laden and his followers. And to keep us all afraid they throw up there little Color chart to indicate the level of "threat". We've heard dozens of reasons why we had to go into Iraq, and none of them stick. I believe the most recent is because Bush says God told him to or some deal ? his mission to spread Democracy. And yes sure, that's a noble effort, But those people JUST DON'T Want us there. Don't want us sticking our nose into their business.. They will continue to blow themselves up, in an effort to get us out of there. While our young troops are left over there to play freakin' POLICE!! our troops weren't trained to play police!!!

Meanwhile it's costing us a "BLOODY" fortune to fight this war in iraq, and I think we're fixing to send money to rebuild all that **** Israel just blew up.. and I'm not gonna argue whether or not Israel was justified in what they did.. my argument is spending all this money over there, when we got folks right here in the Gulf still trying to make a go of it and who really need help. And no I'm not an Isolationist.

and @#@# while I'm at it.. why do we allow US companies to out source all these damn jobs to India and the like ? Computer jobs at that!?

o.k. I'm done

[Al Swearengen]

(1.) Regarding the Pentagon, how were bodies from the Boeing 757 identified while at the same time 60 tons of metal supposedly vaporized? (2.) Also regarding the Pentagon, how could a student pilot make a Boeing 757 jet nosedive towards the ground and then pull up at the last moment and zoom along without radar guidance towards his target, literally inches from the ground? (3.) And how did that 757, essentially a hollow tube, pierce 6 reinforced walls of the Pentagon fortress? No source I have read has convincingly explained how this could have happened. (4.) Incidently, the final hole, of which there is fortunately a photograph, is remarkably well-defined and about 7 feet in diameter. (5.) Why were at least two independant video cameras of the Pentagon attack confiscated and why are they still unavailable to the public? (6.) Why did Norad's standard defense procedures, procedures which had worked efficiently for years and years and which were activated 70 times in the 12 months before 9/11, fail on that single morning? (7.) Why did building 7 of the WTC complex, a 47 story tall steel-frame structure, collapse as it did at 5:30 pm (no significant debris or aircraft hit it)..and why did it sure as hell look as though it came down as a controlled demolition? (8.) What exactly did WTC landlord Larry Silverstein mean when he told PBS that he and the fire chief agreed at 5:00 pm to "pull" Building 7? "Pull" is construction lingo for controlled demolition. Since you cant wire a building that quickly, ipso facto it was pre-wired. If Building 7, why not the North and South Towers? And if so, why not admit it? (9.) Along these lines, why would numerous witnesses on the ground in lower Manhatten, including several NYC firefighters, speak of a series of explosions emanating from the South Tower during it's collapse? Such explosions were of a kind that would be consistent with the theory of controlled demolition. (10.) What was the true relationship between Al Qaeda, the Pakistani intelligence agency ISI, and the CIA? (11.) Why for an entire year did the President try to prevent a commission from forming to investigate the event? (12.) Why did the committee itself, appropriately referred to by Michael Ruppert as "mobbed-up friends of the President and National Security Advisor, egregiously and steadfastly refuse to do a real investigation? And please do not bother citing that travesty known as the 9/11 Commission Report, which deals forthrightly with none of these questions.

The above was taken from an article written by Richard M. Dolan

In the aftermath, the "Patriot Act" zips thru Congress like saltines thru a goose. We get into an undeclared war with Iraq to the tune of $300 billion and enough body-bags to fill up the Superdome. Halliburton and other defense contractors with close ties to the administration start lining their pockets. The price of gas skyrockets. Have I missed anything?

[Bob]

Wow, this thread has taken on a life of it's own.. hasn't it ?

If I get right down to it.. you've got my vote for sending our troops home away from that hell hole that is Iraq.. or send more of them into Afghanistan to track down Bin Laden, or where ever he may be ??

And Al.. yes I've asked myself some of those questions regarding the Pentagon attack. Especially when I see the pictures and have to ask myself WTF happended to the PLANE ?? It does boggle the mind a bit.

I watched the CNN replay online the other day of their 9-11 broadcast.. just as it appeared on that fateful day.. it was really an odd experience watching it now. I remember all to well watching the news on that morning, it freaked me out. And regarding the towers.. I always thought it odd how they fell STRAIGHT down like that. ???

Not sure I completely go for the government being behind it all.. But there is certainly some details of the day I find very odd.

Bob.

[Al Swearengen]

Well, I think a pretty damning case can be made that the government WAS behind this whole thing..based on the evidence and the events which have since transpired. Hell, it wouldnt be the first time, right? Theres some pretty convincing evidence that the attack on Pearl Harbor was "allowed" to occur.

[Rough Rider]

Originally Posted by Al Swearengen

In the aftermath, the "Patriot Act" zips thru Congress like saltines thru a goose. We get into an undeclared war with Iraq to the tune of $300 billion and enough body-bags to fill up the Superdome. Halliburton and other defense contractors with close ties to the administration start lining their pockets. The price of gas skyrockets. Have I missed anything?

Al, the above is what I find most interesting about your post.. I agree, and I too have problems with the Patriot Act, do we need to go after the terrorist, YOU BETCHA, but I've got problems with some of the Patriot Act and how it was passed. And the Privatizing of certain aspects of a "war" I have a problem with as well.. especially Halliburton.

I've been reading through this site for several days now.. was compelled to register and post finally.. I'm starting to really like this site.
We need to spread the word, I'm very interested to know what others in our community feel about these and other subjects which affect us all.

Rough Rider

[kansast]

I find it interesting, that a thread titled It's Time To Remember Sept. 11, 2001 Attacks has turned into a lot of questions about our current course of action. I think as long as we are able, and DO ask questions about our Government there is still hope.

but back on the subject of this thread. I'm reminded of an interview I heard the other day from a member of the New York Fire Department.. and the pain he feels in remembering this day, and how he lives it EVERY DAY. But he asked that as we remember such a HORRIFIC day, we also take time to remember THE MANY, MANY acts of heroism that occurred on that fateful day. And the many folks who lost their lives on that day, doing what they swore to do, serve and protect. when I think of those who RAN INTO THE FIRE, and RAN UP THE STAIRS of the twin towers.. it boggles the mind. God Bless them and God bless their families they leave behind.

[Al Swearengen]

KansasT,
Thanks for getting us back on topic. I have a tendency to lose focus on this issue. Couldnt have said it better..God bless the heros and victims of this monstrous act, and may He damn those behind it, whoever they may be!

[rhertz]

Originally Posted by Rough Rider

rhertz,
glad to see you are asking yourself some of the 'right' questions.

Well, I must admit that I find it difficult to argue any of the points you made here. You do have me thinking, which is a good reason not to go back to stay in lurk mode too long.

I think your best points are how we are spending $300B plus in Iraq but what about devistated Louisiana and Mississippi? And you are right, freedom and democracy must be yearned for and earned the hard way, not given to you by someone else. If they wanted democracy over there, they would have had their own Boston tea party, paid the cost in their own blood, and earned the reward and pride that results, for generations to talk about. Instead of pride, it is a mix of finger pointing over there, largely at the US.

On one hand I feel like we should mind our own business, however, for good or for bad, once a "global economy" is in place and functioning, then worldwide events do become our business so to speak. We own land in other countries, and foreigners own land here, stocks, investments, and corporations as well. I'm not at all for "protectionism" but I'm also sick and tired of "offshoring" as you mention with computer jobs, but also radiology and call centers, and the list grows.

I don't have many answers, but at my core, I am for privatization, smaller government, lower taxes, tighter borders, capitalism, free markets, strong defence, so maybe I do watch Fox news too much! LOL Take care Rough Rider...