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Old 05-30-2007, 04:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LateNight
Tbelle, I certainly understand from where you are coming from and your rational. But I think the problem is, is that it's impossible to understand the mind of a truly depressed, or broken mind. At least for me it is. For anyone to get to the point of suicide is just beyond my reasoning. Not to mention taking their own children.

Now YES I do understand that the problem does exist for some.. and that people are pulled or pushed to a point of suicide. Even if I can't comprehend getting to that point myself.

And I think Anime is just speaking in defense of these young children, who had no say so in the matter. and were dragged down with this obviously psychotic/depressed woman.

It is just such an horrendous act.. those of us in our right minds can't get our heads around it, and must simply come to the conclusion that this woman was just out of her freakin' mind and she must be evil. Much less trying to give reason or rhyme to it..

But yes, her mind was BROKEN in some form or fashion. how else could such a thing happen ?
You know Latenight I thinking you are getting it. It is hard to fathom how someone could get so deep and dark down in their soul that you can't reach them and that they could do something so horrendous. If I had not witnessed the downward spiral of my own mom, I would not be able to speak so passionately of depression or mental illness. Now no she did not kill anyone just herself but it was the worst thing in the world to see this person that you literally could not reach no matter what you said or did. Until my experience I too was like many of you and had no understanding and certainly lacked a lot of compassion for these people. I believe the best thing everyone can do is to educate themselves regarding depression and mental illness. You never know when it will touch you or someone in your family. Oprah did a show on it just last week and it was very informative. You probably can download it and watch it. I encourage those interested to do so.
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:17 PM   #17
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Actually, I had suicide prevention training for 4 years in the military. We were taught how to spot people who were on such a brink, because they usually show signs before-hand. Secondly, I passed my college-level psychology course with an A average last year. Depression was part of the course. With that, I have absolutely done my homework, TBelle. When I was in elementary school, a friend of mine committed suicide.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think someone in deep depression is not responsible for their actions, no matter how horrible those actions are or whom they hurt. It's true that they are not in the right state of mind, but public safety is an issue when people are dead. Depression or not, if you kill, you must be removed from society.
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:28 PM   #18
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Oh you're an expert Anime!

Did I say she wasn't responsible? No, I didn't. I am stated she is not thinking in a proper frame of mind and therefore can not make proper judgements. Yes, I do think mentally ill people if they are posing a true danger to society should be placed in a proper facility and get the proper treatment. Which brings to mind the biggest problem, there is not enough help for the truly ill and many of the people crowding the facilities are not truly ill.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasbelle
Yes, I do think mentally ill people if they are posing a true danger to society should be placed in a proper facility and get the proper treatment. Which brings to mind the biggest problem, there is not enough help for the truly ill and many of the people crowding the facilities are not truly ill.
I don't really have any experience in that subject. I don't claim to be an expert in psychology, but I'm also not entirely ignorant on the subject. I've had some basic training and refresher courses on psychology and I worked as a sort of "uncertified personal advisor" for a few years a while back.

Don't take it so personally because nothing I've said here applies to your mother, TBelle. I sincerely sympathize for your mother as well as your loss. I can do so because she obviously had problems that got the better of her and she didn't get the help she needed.

However, someone who takes the life of a child is someone I am far less capable of having sympathy for.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:24 PM   #20
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Your statements apply to every mentally ill patient whether they take the life of a child or not. You are not accepting or understanding how sick these people can get. I am not only defending my own mom but other mentally ill people as well. I am not defending the killing of innocent children.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:53 PM   #21
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Seems to me like the problem solves itself. The world is a better place without her. Probably a better place without her kids, too.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:58 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasbelle
Your statements apply to every mentally ill patient whether they take the life of a child or not. You are not accepting or understanding how sick these people can get. I am not only defending my own mom but other mentally ill people as well. I am not defending the killing of innocent children.
If that's what you think, then you must not understand my position. This is obviously a touchy topic for you, so I'm gonna walk away from it now.
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasbelle
You must drink the cool aid somewhere Sheba. You know what I would encourage you and Anime to do is study depression and study mental illness before you make assumptions. You might be surprised at how well these people can fool you sometimes. One moment they are fine and appear very normal and it is the next second they are taking their life. Yes, it was inhumane what she did but I think it is very safe to assume she was not in a normal state of mind. What normal state of mind would do this?
Wow! I can honestly say I have never been accused of "drinking the Kool Aid". I find it insulting that you are critical of my background knowledge of mental illness/depression or Anime's without truly knowing that. I don't think I am the one who has made assumptions here.

In spite of that, we are entitled to our opinions and to expressing them here in sincerity of heart just as you are. As stated so many times on these posts, different does not equal wrong. I am constantly learning and forming my views when I read the variety of posts that come up. I am careful to say that I agree/disagree, but never am I critical of the person posting. That would show extreme immaturity - much like discussing your tan lines. We all add value to the discussion. Careful with criticism. It can be very destructive.

Mental illness or not, one is responsible for his/her actions. My reaction is shock and grief for the children who were robbed of any chance of loving and laughing and seeing tomorrow's sunrise. For them and for their families, my heart breaks.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:05 PM   #24
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[sarcasm]
Face it Anime, you're arguing with an "expert" whom you can NEVER hope to match in knowledge on the matter because you are fortunate enough to have a mother that didn't take her own life. Who gives a damn about how much official training and education you've received and the credentials you have to support YOUR opinions
[/sarcasm]

I understand how you feel, TB. I'm the only person here who's ever been accused of murdering a loved one and I'm the mother****ing expert. Except I understand I lack the ability to be objective while discussing those issues not everyone else participating in the conversation
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba
Wow! I can honestly say I have never been accused of "drinking the Kool Aid". I find it insulting that you are critical of my background knowledge of mental illness/depression or Anime's without truly knowing that. I don't think I am the one who has made assumptions here.

In spite of that, we are entitled to our opinions and to expressing them here in sincerity of heart just as you are. As stated so many times on these posts, different does not equal wrong. I am constantly learning and forming my views when I read the variety of posts that come up. I am careful to say that I agree/disagree, but never am I critical of the person posting. That would show extreme immaturity - much like discussing your tan lines. We all add value to the discussion. Careful with criticism. It can be very destructive.

Mental illness or not, one is responsible for his/her actions. My reaction is shock and grief for the children who were robbed of any chance of loving and laughing and seeing tomorrow's sunrise. For them and for their families, my heart breaks.
Well Sheba dear I guess you need to go back and read the post don't you? I didn't criticize your background knowledge of mental illness did I? I encouraged you to educate yourself on the subject. There is a difference. No assumption was made by me on behalf of any knowledge that you may or may not have.

You may think you have not been critical of people in your posts but you just got started did you not? I guess it smarts to have your toes stepped on and to have someone disagree so strongly with you. There is a quite a distinction between disagreeing with someone and criticism. It's time to learn the difference.

Our legal system does not hold mentally ill people "responsible" for their actions in the same manner a normal person is held accountable. There are times when these people truly do not understand their own actions. You still can not seem to grasp that point. It does not excuse the action nor the horrendous deed done to these precious children, but it's the reality of the situation when a mentally ill mother or father does not get the proper treatment. Until our society which includes people like you begin to understand, recognize, and lobby for more help for the mentally ill these situations will continue to play out over and over again.
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:22 PM   #26
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For whomever questioned earlier today whether or not the mother was depressed....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276087,00.html
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:32 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasbelle
I guess it smarts to have your toes stepped on and to have someone disagree so strongly with you. There is a quite a distinction between disagreeing with someone and criticism. It's time to learn the difference.
My toes are fine. Strong disagreement does not make one right. Neither does heated or pointed responses. Would "drink the Kool Aid" disagreement or criticism? I guess my definition and yours are just different. Perhaps you are the one who does not handle the strong disagreement?

One life experience does not define all the others who wish to express without disdain. There is no way for you to know the personal experience, knowledge, faith, or varied background that each individual represents. What you can realize is that your's is not the only one represented here.

In truth, whether she was mentally competent or not is even an issue. She will not have to face the legal system. As joepole says, problem solved.
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:41 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba
My toes are fine. Strong disagreement does not make one right. Neither does heated or pointed responses. Would "drink the Kool Aid" disagreement or criticism? I guess my definition and yours are just different. Perhaps you are the one who does not handle the strong disagreement?

One life experience does not define all the others who wish to express without disdain. There is no way for you to know the personal experience, knowledge, faith, or varied background that each individual represents. What you can realize is that your's is not the only one represented here.

In truth, whether she was mentally competent or not is even an issue. She will not have to face the legal system. As joepole says, problem solved.
No the problem is not solved sister because the country is full of people just like you who do not seem to understand the situation at hand. It is that discussion we have been having today and it's led to this long, heated thread. My life experience with it (mental illness and depression) is the same experience that thousands of others across this country are experiencing DAILY!. Perhaps you haven't experienced, perhaps it's going on in your own homoe right now with someone and you don't realize it, perhaps you have a coworker severely depressed and you don't realize it, and the point is that it is very real. It touches more lives than you can know and it might just be your life next. I do realize that we all share different experiences here which is what we like to share with each other and learn from each other. Perhaps you have missed that?

I suggest this to you before you keep trying to hack away at me for trying to get you to see what perhaps could have led this woman down this road, why don't you take the time to read up on depression? Why don't you Google "Mothers who kill children"? Read those stories and statistics for awhile and see if your attitude changes. Why don't you spend some time perhaps on the Suicide Prevention hotline and talk to these people and see if your attitude changes? I think it would. God did not put us on this earth to tear each other down but rather to lift each other up. These people really need our strong shoulders to lean on and our voices to speak out and get them some help.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:18 PM   #29
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well this thread is going nowhere.. so let me give it another whack

I believe there are two issues here.. as far as how people react to this..

I don't believe that the problem here is that people don't understand "depression". Certainly some people can understand it more than others.. be it personal experience, with one's self or a family member, or just a simple understanding in general.

It's not that I don't believe others here would be capable of helping another in need.. or do their best to lift one another's spirit should someone be feeling down and out or depressed.

And YES some people get so depressed.. they may need to be hospitalized, or they may need medication. And I'm sure most here can understand that.

HOWEVER I believe the problem everyone is having with finding ANY acceptance in this, is the fact that she killed her children.

It's a difficult thing to comprehend. I believe it's easier just to be MAD at the mother and be done with it. I've never experienced a family member committing suicide.. but I'm sure possibly one of the early reactions to such a thing, would be to be ANGRY at that person.. only after some reflection, could I try to begin to comprehend why they would do such a thing.

However.. if that family member, took out other family members FIRST, and then killed themselves.. I'd be PISSED at them.. and probably stay that way for a long time. I mean come on.. on a good day, you might try to understand why someone would kill them self. But understand why they took out the other family member first.. NO, I would never accept that. I just don't see how I could.

Now, if this mother had survived, she would certainly go to trial.. it would be argued whether or not she was competent to stand trial.. As it is, we can only GUESS what was going through her mind. I haven't read any of these news stories, so I don't know the particulars.. but generally speaking.. who knows, maybe she could have been depressed.. but to what degree.. maybe she was depressed, or maybe she was angry, had other motives for killing her children ?

I'll say it again.. could be her mind was so freakin' broken from depression.. what other reason could there be right ? But at the same time, even if you can UNDERSTAND depression.. understanding it to a point to accept that this person couldn't be held accountable for killing her own children.. that's another stretch all together.

ramble ramble ramble.. sorry.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:57 PM   #30
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Latenight it was a good ramble!

I don't want you to think that I find her actions acceptable or that I am ok with them. I am not by no stretch. In our world more than 29 nations do not even allow the death penalty handed out to mothers who kill children if they are mentally ill. This must tell you something about how serious some people do take this and the thought process many have put into it. Serious research has been done on mothers and depression which is very much the reason why these countries do not allow the harshest of punishments. It is a hard, hard thing to comprehend and understand. I don't fully get it but I do understand it more now than I did a year ago.

I can tell you about the anger. Yes, you do get mad at them. You get very mad but the first thing I had to realize was that my mom the one I knew and loved would never have hurt me so much. The one who took her life was not the one who raised me. She was a very ill person who was hurting so much deep in her soul that she thought she was doing the right thing for herself and her children. It all sounds so strange I am sure but it is the way these people think. Lots of these mothers think they are "saving" their children by killing them. To me ultimately what I have learned is that mental illness is very real and one of the most difficult diseases to deal with. I routinely watch a cancer doctor treating his patients and it does not appear to be nearly so difficult as the mentally ill. This has all been my "take" on it and I have sure appreciated yours and Anime's discussion and what you've brought to the table. I am sure we can all take something from this and learn from it.
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