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Old 03-19-2007, 08:41 AM   #1
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Post What Do You Think Of The Confederate Flag?

The Sons of Confederate Veterans waged war this week with a Florida art museum over artwork featured in a Black History Month art exhibition.
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:56 AM   #2
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Yeah, I saw a clip on Youtube where a similar debate has gone on right here in Shreveport over the Conderate flag.



I'm not sure about my views on the topic. I'm not bothered by the Confederate flag in the least, but I know there are those that are.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:41 AM   #3
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I have asked a handful of people why they fly the Confederate flag and the answer is always the same. "It's not about racism, it's about heritage," which does not answer my question. I'm not sure what that statement means. The heritage of the Confederate states? The heritage of the south?

In addition, when the South seceded, they did so illegally (not that there is any legal way to secede.) The land, infrastructure, homes, government institutions, etc. were all funded, acquired by or under the authority of the Union, and in seceding, the Confederates were in essence stealing the land, roads, and infrastructure from the Union.

Also, a prevailing idea in that the Civil War was fought over States Rights vs. Federal Jurisdiction. President Lincoln believed that if slavery was to be abolished, it was a large enough moral issue that it would have to be abolished throughout the Union as a whole in order to preserve the Union.

Finally, it could be debated that the Confederates just simply wanted to continue with slavery.

Whichever way I slice it, I still don't see a reason for flying the Confederate flag, and I don't understand "the heritage" that people are trying to remember.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:53 AM   #4
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>In addition, when the South seceded, they did so illegally (not that there is any legal way to secede.) The land, infrastructure, homes, government institutions, etc. were all funded, acquired by or under the authority of the Union, and in seceding, the Confederates were in essence stealing the land, roads, and infrastructure from the Union.

1. Where did the Federal government get its money? Was the South not paying taxes at the time?

2. Isn't that how we got our country in the first place? By doing the same thing to the British?

You don't understand that people are proud to be associated with an institution that was willing to go to war (that it was almost certain to lose) to defend its principles?

The civil war was about states' rights. Slavery was an issue, but not the most important and certainly not the only.
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Old 03-19-2007, 12:07 PM   #5
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Hear, hear for JOEPOLE

Quote:
Originally Posted by joepole
>In addition, when the South seceded, they did so illegally (not that there is any legal way to secede.) The land, infrastructure, homes, government institutions, etc. were all funded, acquired by or under the authority of the Union, and in seceding, the Confederates were in essence stealing the land, roads, and infrastructure from the Union.

1. Where did the Federal government get its money? Was the South not paying taxes at the time?

2. Isn't that how we got our country in the first place? By doing the same thing to the British?

You don't understand that people are proud to be associated with an institution that was willing to go to war (that it was almost certain to lose) to defend its principles?

The civil war was about states' rights. Slavery was an issue, but not the most important and certainly not the only.
Well stated Joepole. The Confederate flag has been taken away from people under the banner of "discrimination" towards blacks. That is BS They can take it how they would like but the bottom line is put your heart in Dixie or get your ass out !
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Old 03-19-2007, 05:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepole
>In addition, when the South seceded, they did so illegally (not that there is any legal way to secede.) The land, infrastructure, homes, government institutions, etc. were all funded, acquired by or under the authority of the Union, and in seceding, the Confederates were in essence stealing the land, roads, and infrastructure from the Union.

1. Where did the Federal government get its money? Was the South not paying taxes at the time?

2. Isn't that how we got our country in the first place? By doing the same thing to the British?

You don't understand that people are proud to be associated with an institution that was willing to go to war (that it was almost certain to lose) to defend its principles?

The civil war was about states' rights. Slavery was an issue, but not the most important and certainly not the only.

1. The Federal Government got its money from citizens of the United States, not from citizens of the "South".

2. We got our country by LEAVING the geographic location of England to start a new country, not TAKING the geographic location of England.

People are proud to be associated with an institution that was willing to go to war to defend its principles of keeping other human beings as slaves? No matter who makes the decision, slavery is/was wrong. The war was about the states' rights to choose whether or not they abolished slavery.

Furthermore, you are asserting that the states had some sort of supremacy or sovereignty (which never existed) over the Federal government. The states did not join the Union as states, they joined as territories, were purchased or conquered, then were given the power of states.

In Abraham Lincoln’s Special Message to Congress, July 4, 1861, he outlined the rationale of the advocates of secession:

“They invented an ingenious little sophism, which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps, through all the incidents, to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is that any state of the Union may, consistently with the national Constitution, and therefore lawfully, and peacefully, withdraw from the Union, without the consent of the Union, or of any other state. The little disguise that the supposed right is to be exercised only for just cause, themselves to be the sole judge of its justice, is too thin to merit any notice.”

Lincoln continues:

The States have their status IN the Union, and they have no other legal status. If they break from this, they can only do so against law, and by revolution. The Union, and not themselves separately, procured their independence, and their liberty. By conquest, or purchase, the Union gave each of them, whatever of independence, and liberty…Unquestionably, the States have the powers, and rights, reserved to them in, and by the National Constitution; but among these, surely, are not included all conceivable powers, however mischievous, or destructive; but, at most, such only, as were known in the world, at the time, as governmental powers; and certainly, a power to destroy the government itself, and never been know as governmental—as a merely administrative power…Whatever concerns the whole, should be confided to the whole—to the general government; while, whatever concerns only the State, should be left exclusively, to the state.
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Old 03-19-2007, 05:18 PM   #7
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>We got our country by LEAVING the geographic location of England to start a new country, not TAKING the geographic location of England.

What exactly happened on THIS continent in the late 1770s, then?

>The States have their status IN the Union, and they have no other legal status.

Exactly, the states of the confederacy felt that the Federal government was not living up to its end of the bargain. Our country was never intended to be a Federal government that ruled over the states, it was intended to be a Federal government that protected the common interests of the states, something many felt wasn't happening. Most Americans at the time (and many today) felt a much stronger affiliation with their home town/state/region than with their country.
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Old 03-19-2007, 05:21 PM   #8
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>The war was about the states' rights to choose whether or not they abolished slavery.

This is just completely wrong. The war was about protecting the interests of less populous, agrarian states vs. the interests of the states that contained the industrial/commercial centers of the country.
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Old 03-19-2007, 05:30 PM   #9
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The black people of today would have you think that

"The war was about the states' rights to choose whether or not they abolished slavery."

It was a part of the problem but only a part. I agree with Joe on this one and I have seen the black population milk this for every penny they can get. They have their freedom and look what they choose to do with it. I know some blacks that have used their rights to live the American dream but oh so many that want that public dole and the government is the enabler for such a large problem. American by birth and southern by the grace of God !
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Old 03-19-2007, 05:37 PM   #10
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>I agree with Joe on this one

Damn, just when I thought I was winning!
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Old 03-19-2007, 07:10 PM   #11
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Joe 31 is still so young

Quote:
Originally Posted by joepole
>I agree with Joe on this one

Damn, just when I thought I was winning!
I would like to thank you for you comment and I had a strange feeling posting it too. So YUPie you think you have been to the fire and have such broad band vision of life. The only way to get experience in life is to grow old. Life teaches us all its lessons and you sir have a long way to go till graduation and class is in session having a family like you do. Best wishes Mr. Pole
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac-Saxxon
"The war was about the states' rights to choose whether or not they abolished slavery."

It was a part of the problem but only a part. I agree with Joe on this one and I have seen the black population milk this for every penny they can get. They have their freedom and look what they choose to do with it. I know some blacks that have used their rights to live the American dream but oh so many that want that public dole and the government is the enabler for such a large problem. American by birth and southern by the grace of God !
Isaac
The first thing that came to my mind, and I realize this could make this debate get even hotter, after reading your post Isaac is the Katrina disaster and Superdome. There were so many of that group of people who just sat around PRIOR to the storm that had the opportunity to help themselves but chose not to. Instead waited and sat around because of that mentality of "You owe it to me". That cow has been milked dry and it's time to get over it. The Confederate flag stands for a lot of things for a lot of people. Almost 200,000 people died fighting in that war for beliefs they believed strongly in and if we choose to honor them by flying that flag, then it is MY right. I have to tolerate the Black History month. Where is the White History month? Can you hear them screaming now if that month came? If you don't like the flag, don't look at it. I don't believe that many, if hardly any, flying it today are flying it with the thought in mind of, "Gee, I wish we still had slaves."
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:41 PM   #13
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Thumbs up

My thoughts on this topic have changed over the years.
Bit of history, my father was born in Bossier City, my mother in New Orleans, they met at LSU in baton rouge back in the late 40's. I believe I can honestly say, neither my father or mother were at all racist. Just before I was born, my family moved to New Jersey.

My father liked to paint every now and again, and after moving to New Jersey, he painted a rather large painting of the image below
. And hung it over the Fire Place mantle. For my father, this was completely a North vs. South thing. It wasn't even that you'd ever hear my father talking about such things, like the confederacy, or these "damn yankees" that kind of thing. I guess he thought of it enough to give me my middle name of "Lee" after General Lee.

My family moved back to Louisiana some 30 years ago. I've always found this debate to be a bit on the ridiculous side. So over the years, at times I've thought it silly that a courthouse or the like should fly the confederate flag. Thinking in terms of only the south lost the war. And I could see that the flag could upset 'certain' people.

However, over the years, I think I take a bit more pride in knowing my southern 'heritage'. we all like to take pride in where we come from. Be it pride in your state, or your city, and we like to belong. That rebel flag, differentiates us from those "Damn yankees" up yonder

Quote:
"Governor, if I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand."
General Robert E. Lee,
August 1870 to
Governor Stockdale of Texas
Quote:
"If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side." --Ulysses S. Grant
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:33 PM   #14
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There are a very few functions that the federal government SHOULD be tasked with, such as national defense, the interstates, currency and so on...the rest should be up to the individual states. The federal government has grown wayyyy too damn big for it's britches, and I challenge ya to name just ONE way that this has benefitted any of us.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac-Saxxon
"The war was about the states' rights to choose whether or not they abolished slavery."

It was a part of the problem but only a part. I agree with Joe on this one and I have seen the black population milk this for every penny they can get. They have their freedom and look what they choose to do with it. I know some blacks that have used their rights to live the American dream but oh so many that want that public dole and the government is the enabler for such a large problem. American by birth and southern by the grace of God !
Isaac
Isaac, are you saying that because the black population does not live up to your standards that they should be put back under slavery?

I was born and raised in Texas, and I completely understand the loyalty and love for your home state. The Confederacy didn't even last half a decade, and it was abolished nearly 150 years ago. The "states rights" issue did not just appear out of thin air, it was sparked by the Federal Government's attempt to abolish slavery. If you agree that slavery is wrong, then the "states rights" issue is a moot point. Furthermore, there is nothing in the Constitution or any other founding document that grants a state, or group of states, rights over the Federal government.

I understand with all of the frustration from putting up with a mentality of entitlement, but that is a separate issue altogether. It's like trying to argue that they were stupid for abolishing slavery because of all the negatives that are happening 150 year later.

The "states rights" argument was one capitalized on by John Calhoun, a politician at the time of the Civil War, believed that when the majority rule and minority rights were in conflict, that one could simply alter or abolish the government. He got that ball rolling and the secession was on.

If you want to quote famous people regarding slavery, here's a few for you:
John Locke: Second Treatise on Government

6. But though this be a state of liberty, yet it is not a state of licence; though man in that state have an uncontrollable liberty to dispose of his person or possessions, yet he has not liberty to destroy himself, or so much as any creature in his possession, but where some nobler use than its bare preservation calls for it. The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges every one, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions; for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent and infinitely wise Maker; all the servants of one sovereign Master, sent into the world by His order and about His business; they are His property, whose workmanship they are made to last during His, not one another's pleasure. And, being furnished with like faculties, sharing all in one community of Nature, there cannot be supposed any such subordination among us that may authorise us to destroy one another, as if we were made for one another's uses, as the inferior ranks of creatures are for ours. Every one as he is bound to preserve himself, and not to quit his station wilfully, so by the like reason, when his own preservation comes not in competition, ought he as much as he can to preserve the rest of mankind, and not unless it be to do justice on an offender, take away or impair the life, or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another.
Thomas Jefferson
“We have the wolf by the ears: and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.”
Somebody please answer me, what is it about the heritage of the Confederacy that is so important? For the most part all I've heard are arguments citing entitlement from blacks now in the 21st century, the big federal government is evil now in the 21st century, but absolutely nothing to support the idea of the Confederate heritage.
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