Dumbing-Down of America

[Isaac-Saxxon]

We are paying more money to the school system and the kids are doing worse on their scores in school. It was just after 1962 that the ACLU and many others decided to take God out of our schools and every thing else we do including a new one dollar coin that was minted. Well if you will read this column you will see that after 1964 things went down hill. I have read other studies on this and the SAT and ACT scores have both gone in the tank
and there is a direct connection between the two !
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19684
Isaac

[AnimeSpirit]

I agree entirely that students are just not as smart as they use to be coming out of high school. Basic reading, math, and science are dwindling to nothing in many graduates. However, there are more factors to consider that this article doesn't seem to address.

For one, there are far more students in school than there was back in 1962. The more burden you put on a simple system, the more shaky and less efficient that system becomes.

Secondly, the curriculums are somewhat different and often more complex in today's schools. Math and science aren't what they were back in 1962. New discoveries are being made all the time and new methods are being learned that make the simple lessons from 1962 into entire chapters here in 2007. Did you learn about variables in your Algebra class back in high school? Did you discuss the human genome in your biology classes? Did you ever learn what a quark was in your physics classes or what the center of an atom is called? I wouldn't know for sure because I graduated in 2000, but if you went to school before 1970, I'd imagine you didn't discuss these things.

It's hard to know where the improvements must be made in today's schools though. I think that student behavior is a problem because too many students care more about disrupting class, playing hooky, or dropping out entirely than actually doing their assignments. This was an observation I made in school. If teachers and high faculty put more effort into enforcing student behavior and parents made more effort in ensuring their children study and complete their assignments, I'd imagine some bright students would start emerging from the woodworks.

[LateNight]

All good comments there Anime, and all so true.
what I find most disturbing, from the schools my children have been in, is the complete lack of homework. It seems in the public shools, they are all about "Teaching the Test" so as to improve on those national test scores. As opposed to letting a qualified teacher "TEACH" real lessons.

And also as you have said, a lot of this has to do with parent participation, be it in the actual school activities or being more involved in raising their children, so as not to be so disruptive in class. Back in the early 80's when I was in high school, we had those types of kids in class, but the rest of us knew them to be idiots and they were looked down upon. Nowadays I think these trouble makers are starting to outnumber the kids who are actually paying attention.

Personally I'm all for trying to improve out public schools.. but I just don't know what the answers are.. My kids have spent time in public and private catholic schools.. They always do MUCH better in the private schools.

[Isaac-Saxxon]

My kids have been in public schools the entire time. One left to go and she is 16 almost and thanks to my wife they had help with home work and she would always keep up with them while I am the bad cop and work long hours but it has turned out great. Not because of public schools or the teachers but because of good parenting and Christian values that we keep at the front of our family. I shall look up the study done on the effect of laws made in 1962 and there after. Sad but oh so true that the moral decline in public schools both in students and teachers has reached a point that the scores are in decline.
Isaac

[Isabella]

Originally Posted by Isaac-Saxxon

My kids have been in public schools the entire time. One left to go and she is 16 almost and thanks to my wife they had help with home work and she would always keep up with them while I am the bad cop and work long hours but it has turned out great. Not because of public schools or the teachers but because of good parenting and Christian values that we keep at the front of our family. I shall look up the study done on the effect of laws made in 1962 and there after. Sad but oh so true that the moral decline in public schools both in students and teachers has reached a point that the scores are in decline.Isaac

My sentiments, too!

[joepole]

>take God out of our schools and every thing else we do including a new one dollar coin that was minted.

The new dollar coins have the (admittedly lame) "In God we Trust" motto on them.

[Santabot]

Originally Posted by AnimeSpirit

I agree entirely that students are just not as smart as they use to be coming out of high school. Basic reading, math, and science are dwindling to nothing in many graduates. However, there are more factors to consider that this article doesn't seem to address.

For one, there are far more students in school than there was back in 1962. The more burden you put on a simple system, the more shaky and less efficient that system becomes.

Secondly, the curriculums are somewhat different and often more complex in today's schools. Math and science aren't what they were back in 1962. New discoveries are being made all the time and new methods are being learned that make the simple lessons from 1962 into entire chapters here in 2007. Did you learn about variables in your Algebra class back in high school? Did you discuss the human genome in your biology classes? Did you ever learn what a quark was in your physics classes or what the center of an atom is called? I wouldn't know for sure because I graduated in 2000, but if you went to school before 1970, I'd imagine you didn't discuss these things.

It's hard to know where the improvements must be made in today's schools though. I think that student behavior is a problem because too many students care more about disrupting class, playing hooky, or dropping out entirely than actually doing their assignments. This was an observation I made in school. If teachers and high faculty put more effort into enforcing student behavior and parents made more effort in ensuring their children study and complete their assignments, I'd imagine some bright students would start emerging from the woodworks.

Agreed in some ways, but let the real current student take up for the mentality behind lack of success in school systems today.

Firstly, I have ZERO homework per night. If a teacher assigns it to me, regardless of point value or anything, I won't do it, it's not something I think that will ever help students in today's time deal with learning the material, people simply don't want to be involved with school once that last hell bell rings every day. I want to get out and do my own things, learn in my own way, and experience what I want, but personally, and for a lot of others: it doesn't take away from our learning experience overall, and those who have the maturity to actually make a learning situation from a seemingly "fun" event have much more to discuss and obviously appear more educated.

I've actively maintained a policy of zero homework (except for things with due dates, projects and such, that won't take too long, but are essential to the trashy grade system) and zero studying for tests. Isn't the entire point of the test to determine what you know? Since when did "learning" the material the night before, and forgetting it the next become a reasonable way to calculate what is being taught and learned in schools? I think this is a large difference in the way the system is being run now, students cram and cheat in order to get around standardized tests and assignments, rather than doing it themselves because they don't either want to spend time out of school to learn it (which shouldn't be required anyway) and other mentalities that I'll get to later.

Kids in class want out. That's what I hear all day: "I wish school was out now", "I wish today was Friday", "I want to go party" or whatever, I say it too, but why do we actually say it? It's not because we just want everything to be slackerville, it's because of the way we're bombarded with "homework" and the terrible job our school teachers are doing their own work, making us rely on our own "teaching" abilities to somehow memorize this insignificant material. If you're in class and you get assigned homework, you think about it all day, no matter what it is, and all you do is think about when you're going to do it, rather than continuing class and doing it when you get home and have time, so by the time you're even out of school, you've been constantly pounding yourself as if you're being totally focused on doing the work, you think you've already spend enough time worrying about homework and just skip it or do a crappy job on it.

If our teachers did their jobs, homework would not be necessary. I cannot believe the administration even allows this kind of bullsh*t process go on from their employees. Nobody wants do to homework, and if you considered all of the massive research and projects I do on my own outside of school not enough to get me an A in a class I "should be doing homework for" and learning valuable material, although it doesn't meet the current agenda, why would they press things on you that they know you won't need to know until the night before finals anyway? It is a job of students to be attentive in class and be conscious of their studies, but it is also the job of teachers to teach adequately and appropriately in a way to familiarize all students with the education they need, rather than blaming students entirely and saying they are unable to meet the standards of education, leaving them behind.

I have teachers that literally will come into class, assign Notes Chapter 1-1, tell you to read the book at night and do the homework, and the next day in class you "check" the homework, at the end of class you receive Notes Chapter 1-2, and that's the way the ENTIRE class is run, until time for the teacher to administer tests, and the occasional student bashing when the teacher feels like he needs to assert his authority over others. This gets no learning done, and doesn't adequately appropriate the hour we get for class into reasonable learning time, I want to take a damn class when I'm at school, not check homework I and everyone else knows they didn't do, it's unreasonable and a failure of the school system as a whole. The sad part is: this is considered acceptable by administration and staff, as well as students.

The grade system is awful as well. You are not rewarded for your outside academic accomplishments unless they meet your schedule (which is also undetermined by yourself, you take what they give you in order and there's no speaking against it) and allow you to pass routine "tests". This is why cheating occurs, a student who (like myself) is very academically inclined that doesn't think reading a fiction novel is a required and necessary action to learn a valuable concept or amount of information will be punished by these "tests" and marked as if they were a literal failure and uneducated and my grades (all colleges and other crappy schools care about now.. stupid GPA) would drop so that it would reflect such a lie. Homework does the same, it only punishes or wrongfully rewards those who do such a simple but extraneous task where a teacher is lacking in their own public duty.

I know I'm not an expert, so don't bash me for my comments, but I also think that I have the most insight into the current school system, since I'm still very much a part of it and actively studying it as I have to go every day. Thanks for your time.

[AnimeSpirit]

Originally Posted by Santabot

Firstly, I have ZERO homework per night. If a teacher assigns it to me, regardless of point value or anything, I won't do it, it's not something I think that will ever help students in today's time deal with learning the material, people simply don't want to be involved with school once that last hell bell rings every day. I want to get out and do my own things, learn in my own way, and experience what I want, but personally, and for a lot of others: it doesn't take away from our learning experience overall, and those who have the maturity to actually make a learning situation from a seemingly "fun" event have much more to discuss and obviously appear more educated.

There are things we can't learn on our own. For instance, to be submissive when we should be and learn the details that aren't necessarily so fun. "You can't be the best without knowing the big and the small," says Lina Inverse. Being made to do homework on our spare time at home teaches self-motivation, responsibility, and helps get you accustomed to putting your all into a worthy goal. This is true in addition to the lesson material. Do you assume that once you're out of high school, you'll never have homework again? WRONG! I not only do my job at work, but I also do it at home when I need to. Any goal worth reaching must require your all, even if the pursuit isn't always fun! I matured enough to appreciate this fact. Homework is the same, your goal is your grade.

Originally Posted by Santabot

I've actively maintained a policy of zero homework (except for things with due dates, projects and such, that won't take too long, but are essential to the trashy grade system) and zero studying for tests. Isn't the entire point of the test to determine what you know? Since when did "learning" the material the night before, and forgetting it the next become a reasonable way to calculate what is being taught and learned in schools? I think this is a large difference in the way the system is being run now, students cram and cheat in order to get around standardized tests and assignments, rather than doing it themselves because they don't either want to spend time out of school to learn it (which shouldn't be required anyway) and other mentalities that I'll get to later.

Memorizing the material in a cram session the night before a test isn't a good way to measure what you know. I agree. But this is a bad habit of the student, NOT the teacher.

Originally Posted by Santabot

Kids in class want out. That's what I hear all day: "I wish school was out now", "I wish today was Friday", "I want to go party" or whatever, I say it too, but why do we actually say it? It's not because we just want everything to be slackerville, it's because of the way we're bombarded with "homework" and the terrible job our school teachers are doing their own work, making us rely on our own "teaching" abilities to somehow memorize this insignificant material. If you're in class and you get assigned homework, you think about it all day, no matter what it is, and all you do is think about when you're going to do it, rather than continuing class and doing it when you get home and have time, so by the time you're even out of school, you've been constantly pounding yourself as if you're being totally focused on doing the work, you think you've already spend enough time worrying about homework and just skip it or do a crappy job on it.

You maintain a zero homework policy except required stuff, YET you complain about "all the homework" you get? I'm confused. Anyway, worrying about homework during class is pointless. The disciplined student puts it out of mind until it is time to deal with it.

Originally Posted by Santabot

If our teachers did their jobs, homework would not be necessary. I cannot believe the administration even allows this kind of bullsh*t process go on from their employees. Nobody wants do to homework, and if you considered all of the massive research and projects I do on my own outside of school not enough to get me an A in a class I "should be doing homework for" and learning valuable material, although it doesn't meet the current agenda, why would they press things on you that they know you won't need to know until the night before finals anyway? It is a job of students to be attentive in class and be conscious of their studies, but it is also the job of teachers to teach adequately and appropriately in a way to familiarize all students with the education they need, rather than blaming students entirely and saying they are unable to meet the standards of education, leaving them behind.

I reiterate. If you can't put some personal time into achieving a goal when you need to, then you don't actually want that goal for yourself. In this case, you would lack pride. I just had a thought too. If you say that your "fun activities" are what is teaching you, then what is the difference between that and homework? Let me guess...homework just isn't fun, right? When it is fun, you're teaching yourself. When it's not fun, it's "homework," right? You do know that when you appreciate the coursework and you actually WANT to learn it, the homework becomes enjoyable, right? It becomes easier and you find yourself jetting through it because time flies when you're having fun. I admit that most teachers do not have a knack for making coursework fun, but some do and I think that is something that needs to be strongly encouraged in the school system.

Originally Posted by Santabot

I have teachers that literally will come into class, assign Notes Chapter 1-1, tell you to read the book at night and do the homework, and the next day in class you "check" the homework, at the end of class you receive Notes Chapter 1-2, and that's the way the ENTIRE class is run, until time for the teacher to administer tests, and the occasional student bashing when the teacher feels like he needs to assert his authority over others. This gets no learning done, and doesn't adequately appropriate the hour we get for class into reasonable learning time, I want to take a damn class when I'm at school, not check homework I and everyone else knows they didn't do, it's unreasonable and a failure of the school system as a whole. The sad part is: this is considered acceptable by administration and staff, as well as students.

Yeah, I've seen those kinds of teachers and there are too many. They are very boring and it's hard to stay awake for their classes. It's hard to be enthusiastic about the work when the teacher isn't. Those teachers need to go.

Originally Posted by Santabot

The grade system is awful as well. You are not rewarded for your outside academic accomplishments unless they meet your schedule (which is also undetermined by yourself, you take what they give you in order and there's no speaking against it) and allow you to pass routine "tests". This is why cheating occurs, a student who (like myself) is very academically inclined that doesn't think reading a fiction novel is a required and necessary action to learn a valuable concept or amount of information will be punished by these "tests" and marked as if they were a literal failure and uneducated and my grades (all colleges and other crappy schools care about now.. stupid GPA) would drop so that it would reflect such a lie. Homework does the same, it only punishes or wrongfully rewards those who do such a simple but extraneous task where a teacher is lacking in their own public duty.

Everything in life doesn't work out the way you plan. Sometimes, you just gotta roll with it. However, cheating is no way to roll with it. It's giving up and sacrificing your reputation for those extra activities.

Originally Posted by Santabot

I know I'm not an expert, so don't bash me for my comments, but I also think that I have the most insight into the current school system, since I'm still very much a part of it and actively studying it as I have to go every day. Thanks for your time.

You may be in the system now, but it doesn't mean your perception of it is complete.

[BrainSmashR]

Originally Posted by Isaac-Saxxon

We are paying more money to the school system and the kids are doing worse on their scores in school. It was just after 1962 that the ACLU and many others decided to take God out of our schools and every thing else we do including a new one dollar coin that was minted. Well if you will read this column you will see that after 1964 things went down hill. I have read other studies on this and the SAT and ACT scores have both gone in the tank
and there is a direct connection between the two !
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19684
Isaac

Hate to burst your Jesus bubble there, buddy, but there was a much more significant movement in the '60's which is the specific reason for the fall in test scores. Ever heard of desegregation?

Check the test scores of your own public schools before and after the influx of Katrina refugees. You'll notice the exact same "phenomenon"...

...and don't even get me started on the 44% black drop-out rate in this state alone.

[Isaac-Saxxon]

Originally Posted by BrainSmashR

Hate to burst your Jesus bubble there, buddy, but there was a much more significant movement in the '60's which is the specific reason for the fall in test scores. Ever heard of desegregation?

Check the test scores of your own public schools before and after the influx of Katrina refugees. You'll notice the exact same "phenomenon"...

...and don't even get me started on the 44% black drop-out rate in this state alone.

Hey there Brain ! Don't worry you have not busted my Jesus bubble it would take much more than someone like you to do that. I see you have not yet learned the real facts about the Bible. It is written there would be people like you Brain that can not make the leap of faith. Hey buddy that is ok because there is a millennium (1000 years) for you to get your act together so there is still hope for you and I will keep you in my prayers and who knows what our Father has in mind for you. You sure helped people on this board take a stand for what they believe and that is a good thing. For every positive there is a negative. You must have been working hard over the last few days and good to see you back up to speed. I do agree that the black race is lagging in the academic area and do have some effect on SAT and ACT scores but the main cause is taking God out of our society and schools and it is your "Choice" not to agree but it is too your loss.
Isaac

[BrainSmashR]

Originally Posted by Isaac-Saxxon

Hey there Brain ! Don't worry you have not busted my Jesus bubble it would take much more than someone like you to do that. I see you have not yet learned the real facts about the Bible. It is written there would be people like you Brain that can not make the leap of faith. Hey buddy that is ok because there is a millennium (1000 years) for you to get your act together so there is still hope for you and I will keep you in my prayers and who knows what our Father has in mind for you. You sure helped people on this board take a stand for what they believe and that is a good thing. For every positive there is a negative. You must have been working hard over the last few days and good to see you back up to speed. I do agree that the black race is lagging in the academic area and do have some effect on SAT and ACT scores but the main cause is taking God out of our society and schools and it is your "Choice" not to agree but it is too your loss.
Isaac

Actually test scores are falling at private and religious based institutions as well.....nice try though. It is a choice whether or not one agrees with the information, but opinions have zero effect on fact.

To be more specific, it's a combination of the above AND the removal of corporal punishment from the school system. Simply put, spanking works better than prayer.

[AnimeSpirit]

I don't know about corporal punishment being the cause. We lost corporal punishment while I was in junior high. If grades have been falling since the 1960s and corporal punishment was removed in the 1990s, then it can't be a lack of corporal punishment causing the lack of intelligence in the school system.

Reversely, I don't think it's the lack of prayer in school either. I've never been a devout Christian, but I'd consider myself a bright and intelligent person. I was a B+ average in high school and we never had prayer in school.

I still think parents need to take a more active role in their childrens' behavior and education.

[BrainSmashR]

Originally Posted by AnimeSpirit

I don't know about corporal punishment being the cause. We lost corporal punishment while I was in junior high. If grades have been falling since the 1960s and corporal punishment was removed in the 1990s, then it can't be a lack of corporal punishment causing the lack of intelligence in the school system.

Reversely, I don't think it's the lack of prayer in school either. I've never been a devout Christian, but I'd consider myself a bright and intelligent person. I was a B+ average in high school and we never had prayer in school.

I still think parents need to take a more active role in their childrens' behavior and education.

Whoa....consider yourself lucky if you were going to a school in the 90's that still utilized the "Board of Education".....your school was a rare one indeed....

Originally Posted by BrainSmashR

Actually test scores are falling at private and religious based institutions as well.....nice try though. It is a choice whether or not one agrees with the information, but opinions have zero effect on fact.

To be more specific, it's a combination of the above AND the removal of corporal punishment from the school system. Simply put, spanking works better than prayer.

Actually relgion causes people to be stupid. The more you learn about religion, the worse you are likely to score on left wing liberal tests.