Dumbing-Down of America

Isaac-Saxxon · 03-18-2007, 03:09 PM

We are paying more money to the school system and the kids are doing worse on their scores in school. It was just after 1962 that the ACLU and many others decided to take God out of our schools and every thing else we do including a new one dollar coin that was minted. Well if you will read this column you will see that after 1964 things went down hill. I have read other studies on this and the SAT and ACT scores have both gone in the tank
and there is a direct connection between the two !

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19684
Isaac

AnimeSpirit · 03-18-2007, 04:34 PM

I agree entirely that students are just not as smart as they use to be coming out of high school. Basic reading, math, and science are dwindling to nothing in many graduates. However, there are more factors to consider that this article doesn't seem to address.

For one, there are far more students in school than there was back in 1962. The more burden you put on a simple system, the more shaky and less efficient that system becomes.

Secondly, the curriculums are somewhat different and often more complex in today's schools. Math and science aren't what they were back in 1962. New discoveries are being made all the time and new methods are being learned that make the simple lessons from 1962 into entire chapters here in 2007. Did you learn about variables in your Algebra class back in high school? Did you discuss the human genome in your biology classes? Did you ever learn what a quark was in your physics classes or what the center of an atom is called? I wouldn't know for sure because I graduated in 2000, but if you went to school before 1970, I'd imagine you didn't discuss these things.

It's hard to know where the improvements must be made in today's schools though. I think that student behavior is a problem because too many students care more about disrupting class, playing hooky, or dropping out entirely than actually doing their assignments. This was an observation I made in school. If teachers and high faculty put more effort into enforcing student behavior and parents made more effort in ensuring their children study and complete their assignments, I'd imagine some bright students would start emerging from the woodworks.

LateNight · 03-18-2007, 04:53 PM

All good comments there Anime, and all so true.
what I find most disturbing, from the schools my children have been in, is the complete lack of homework. It seems in the public shools, they are all about "Teaching the Test" so as to improve on those national test scores. As opposed to letting a qualified teacher "TEACH" real lessons.

And also as you have said, a lot of this has to do with parent participation, be it in the actual school activities or being more involved in raising their children, so as not to be so disruptive in class. Back in the early 80's when I was in high school, we had those types of kids in class, but the rest of us knew them to be idiots and they were looked down upon. Nowadays I think these trouble makers are starting to outnumber the kids who are actually paying attention.

Personally I'm all for trying to improve out public schools.. but I just don't know what the answers are.. My kids have spent time in public and private catholic schools.. They always do MUCH better in the private schools.

Isaac-Saxxon · 03-18-2007, 05:57 PM

My kids have been in public schools the entire time. One left to go and she is 16 almost and thanks to my wife they had help with home work and she would always keep up with them while I am the bad cop and work long hours but it has turned out great. Not because of public schools or the teachers but because of good parenting and Christian values that we keep at the front of our family. I shall look up the study done on the effect of laws made in 1962 and there after. Sad but oh so true that the moral decline in public schools both in students and teachers has reached a point that the scores are in decline.
Isaac

Isabella · 03-19-2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isaac-Saxxon

My kids have been in public schools the entire time. One left to go and she is 16 almost and thanks to my wife they had help with home work and she would always keep up with them while I am the bad cop and work long hours but it has turned out great. Not because of public schools or the teachers but because of good parenting and Christian values that we keep at the front of our family. I shall look up the study done on the effect of laws made in 1962 and there after. Sad but oh so true that the moral decline in public schools both in students and teachers has reached a point that the scores are in decline.Isaac

My sentiments, too!

joepole · 03-19-2007, 11:39 AM

>take God out of our schools and every thing else we do including a new one dollar coin that was minted.

The new dollar coins have the (admittedly lame) "In God we Trust" motto on them.

joepole · 03-19-2007, 11:40 AM

What's wrong with teaching to the test if you assume the test is a good measure of subject mastery?

Isaac-Saxxon · 03-19-2007, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joepole

>take God out of our schools and every thing else we do including a new one dollar coin that was minted.

The new dollar coins have the (admittedly lame) "In God we Trust" motto on them.

You will not be laughing when they hit 12 or 13 and all the moral decline has gotten even worse than it is now. Maybe you can afford private school but you might want to save some money. It is a fact that they took God out of our schools in 1962 and are still working on it now and it is a fact that the moral decline is out of hand and the scores have gone down. I see by your (admittedly lame) comment about "In God we Trust" you must be of the anti Christian group that would like to see America striped of God. We all reap what it is we sow. The "numbers" joe do not lie and you are a numbers man !
Isaac

Isabella · 03-19-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joepole

What's wrong with teaching to the test if you assume the test is a good measure of subject mastery?

Teaching for the test is not developing analytical thinking skills. Several college professors told me students are not prepared for college math and science classes when they begin college. They see it as a crisis for the future of our country.

Drilling students is not teaching, anyway. If students are having a difficult time grasping a math skill the teacher can't keep working on it until they get it, because the teacher has to stop and start teaching another subject. Everything has to be taught at a certain time. Good teachers hate this.

AnimeSpirit · 03-19-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isabella

Teaching for the test is not developing analytical thinking skills. Several college professors told me students are not prepared for college math and science classes when they begin college. They see it as a crisis for the future of our country.

Drilling students is not teaching, anyway. If students are having a difficult time grasping a math skill the teacher can't keep working on it until they get it, because the teacher has to stop and start teaching another subject. Everything has to be taught at a certain time. Good teachers hate this.

Well, at the same time, good teachers expect students who don't get it to put some of their own time into getting it as well. I agree with the rest of what you're saying. Teaching only for a simple set of questions on a test will not teach a student how to solve similar problems that are not directly on the test.

Isaac-Saxxon · 03-19-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnimeSpirit

Well, at the same time, good teachers expect students who don't get it to put some some of their own time into getting it as well. I agree with the rest of what you're saying. Teaching only for a simple set of questions on a test will not teach a student how to solve similar problems that are not directly on the test.

Which is directly related to how our children are doing in school. To late to put the monkey back in the box I wonder where the bottom is for the education system ? Will we go back to the two groups the haves and have knots ? If this is the case all the entitlements and give away programs have done is teach people to be lazy and not willing to self motivate to learn and get to the point of paying taxes and being a working part of society.
Isaac

LateNight · 03-19-2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isabella

Teaching for the test is not developing analytical thinking skills. Several college professors told me students are not prepared for college math and science classes when they begin college. They see it as a crisis for the future of our country.

Drilling students is not teaching, anyway. If students are having a difficult time grasping a math skill the teacher can't keep working on it until they get it, because the teacher has to stop and start teaching another subject. Everything has to be taught at a certain time. Good teachers hate this.

Well said there Isabella.. Better than I could have put it.

joepole · 03-19-2007, 02:23 PM

>Teaching for the test is not developing analytical thinking skills

It does if the test adequately tests analytical thinking skills. Also, analytical thinking skills are a small part of what children should be taught in school. There's a whole slew of stuff that need to just know.

joepole · 03-19-2007, 02:26 PM

>I see by your (admittedly lame) comment about "In God we Trust" you must be of the anti Christian group that would like to see America striped of God.

I am not, I just think that's not a very good motto for our country. Our country isn't unique for its trust of God, it's unique for many other things. We fought a war to get out from under the thumb of England, a country with a state religion. England created that religion to get away from the influence of Rome. Trusting God is something all of these governments have claimed to do.

Our motto should mention freedom or equality of opportunity. We don't have a state religion so our motto should be secular.

Isaac-Saxxon · 03-19-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joepole

>I see by your (admittedly lame) comment about "In God we Trust" you must be of the anti Christian group that would like to see America striped of God.

I am not, I just think that's not a very good motto for our country. Our country isn't unique for its trust of God, it's unique for many other things. We fought a war to get out from under the thumb of England, a country with a state religion. England created that religion to get away from the influence of Rome. Trusting God is something all of these governments have claimed to do.

Our motto should mention freedom or equality of opportunity. We don't have a state religion so our motto should be secular.

"In God We Trust" is the very foundation of this country. The Ten Commandments and the Bible are not state sponsored religion but the very truth of how this great nation became the super power it is. No one will address the decline in scores and increase in crime about the time it was decided to remove God from our system of government. The dirty work of the ACLU has come to fruit and we just do not know how are why are kids are killing each other and STD's are so rampant ? There is a note on most calendars called B.C. and A.D. that make a very strong statement !

Anno Domini (Latin : "In the year of (Our) Lord"[1]), abbreviated as AD, defines an epoch based on the traditionally reckoned year of the conception or birth of Jesus of Nazareth. AD is also an abbreviation for Christian Era.[2] Similarly, Before Christ (from the Ancient Greek "Christos" or "Anointed One", referring to Jesus), abbreviated as BC, is used in the English language to denote years before the start of this epoch.

Isaac

03-18-2007, 03:09 PM	#1
Isaac-Saxxon SBLive! Veteran Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,421 Rep Power: 324	Dumbing-Down of America We are paying more money to the school system and the kids are doing worse on their scores in school. It was just after 1962 that the ACLU and many others decided to take God out of our schools and every thing else we do including a new one dollar coin that was minted. Well if you will read this column you will see that after 1964 things went down hill. I have read other studies on this and the SAT and ACT scores have both gone in the tank and there is a direct connection between the two ! http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19684 Isaac

03-18-2007, 05:57 PM	#4
Isaac-Saxxon SBLive! Veteran Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,421 Rep Power: 324	I agree that private schools are better My kids have been in public schools the entire time. One left to go and she is 16 almost and thanks to my wife they had help with home work and she would always keep up with them while I am the bad cop and work long hours but it has turned out great. Not because of public schools or the teachers but because of good parenting and Christian values that we keep at the front of our family. I shall look up the study done on the effect of laws made in 1962 and there after. Sad but oh so true that the moral decline in public schools both in students and teachers has reached a point that the scores are in decline. Isaac

03-18-2007, 04:34 PM	#2
AnimeSpirit SBLive! Veteran Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Nowhere Age: 42 Posts: 1,659 Rep Power: 268	I agree entirely that students are just not as smart as they use to be coming out of high school. Basic reading, math, and science are dwindling to nothing in many graduates. However, there are more factors to consider that this article doesn't seem to address. For one, there are far more students in school than there was back in 1962. The more burden you put on a simple system, the more shaky and less efficient that system becomes. Secondly, the curriculums are somewhat different and often more complex in today's schools. Math and science aren't what they were back in 1962. New discoveries are being made all the time and new methods are being learned that make the simple lessons from 1962 into entire chapters here in 2007. Did you learn about variables in your Algebra class back in high school? Did you discuss the human genome in your biology classes? Did you ever learn what a quark was in your physics classes or what the center of an atom is called? I wouldn't know for sure because I graduated in 2000, but if you went to school before 1970, I'd imagine you didn't discuss these things. It's hard to know where the improvements must be made in today's schools though. I think that student behavior is a problem because too many students care more about disrupting class, playing hooky, or dropping out entirely than actually doing their assignments. This was an observation I made in school. If teachers and high faculty put more effort into enforcing student behavior and parents made more effort in ensuring their children study and complete their assignments, I'd imagine some bright students would start emerging from the woodworks.

03-18-2007, 04:53 PM	#3
LateNight SBLive! Veteran Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,609 Rep Power: 274	All good comments there Anime, and all so true. what I find most disturbing, from the schools my children have been in, is the complete lack of homework. It seems in the public shools, they are all about "Teaching the Test" so as to improve on those national test scores. As opposed to letting a qualified teacher "TEACH" real lessons. And also as you have said, a lot of this has to do with parent participation, be it in the actual school activities or being more involved in raising their children, so as not to be so disruptive in class. Back in the early 80's when I was in high school, we had those types of kids in class, but the rest of us knew them to be idiots and they were looked down upon. Nowadays I think these trouble makers are starting to outnumber the kids who are actually paying attention. Personally I'm all for trying to improve out public schools.. but I just don't know what the answers are.. My kids have spent time in public and private catholic schools.. They always do MUCH better in the private schools.

03-19-2007, 11:39 AM	#6
joepole SBLive! Veteran Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,606 Rep Power: 265	>take God out of our schools and every thing else we do including a new one dollar coin that was minted. The new dollar coins have the (admittedly lame) "In God we Trust" motto on them.

03-19-2007, 11:40 AM	#7
joepole SBLive! Veteran Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,606 Rep Power: 265	What's wrong with teaching to the test if you assume the test is a good measure of subject mastery?

03-19-2007, 02:23 PM	#13
joepole SBLive! Veteran Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,606 Rep Power: 265	>Teaching for the test is not developing analytical thinking skills It does if the test adequately tests analytical thinking skills. Also, analytical thinking skills are a small part of what children should be taught in school. There's a whole slew of stuff that need to just know.

03-19-2007, 02:26 PM	#14
joepole SBLive! Veteran Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,606 Rep Power: 265	>I see by your (admittedly lame) comment about "In God we Trust" you must be of the anti Christian group that would like to see America striped of God. I am not, I just think that's not a very good motto for our country. Our country isn't unique for its trust of God, it's unique for many other things. We fought a war to get out from under the thumb of England, a country with a state religion. England created that religion to get away from the influence of Rome. Trusting God is something all of these governments have claimed to do. Our motto should mention freedom or equality of opportunity. We don't have a state religion so our motto should be secular.

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